Creative That Drives the Click Through | Lauren Schwartz

Matt Edmundson

Well hello and welcome to the e commerce podcast with me your host Matt Edmundson now whether you are just starting out or whether you're a bit of a dinosaur like me and have been around eCommerce for a while you're in the right place this show is just for you because my goal is very simple is to help you grow your ecommerce and digital businesses now how we do that where every week i get to talk to amazing people from the world of ecommerce in fact just from the world full stop. All over the world we have guests joining us on the show and I get to ask them all kinds of questions about what they know and how it's going to help us develop our own online business. I kind of try and have the conversation you would have if you got to sit down with them and just have like you know a coffee in your favourite coffee shop or a tea you know or whatever your tipple is. Anyway, that's how we kind of do it on the show I kind of dig into their story learn the principles that I can learn because, like you, I run ecommerce businesses and I'm very very keen to understand how to do it better and how to grow my own online businesses. So if you're listening to this then and you like the show I'd appreciate it if you could rate us on iTunes it's always good to hear from folks but if you're watching this on YouTube or on our Facebook channel, very very welcome to you! If you're watching it live you can join in the comments but if you're watching the catch up you can you know make sure you hit the subscribe button make sure you hit the notifications and do all those kinds of things so you can stay up to date with what's going on because like I say, every week we get to talk to amazing people. And this week is no exception let me tell you. This week we are looking at creatives that drives the click through - the clicks to your website the clicks to your landing page. How do you do that, right/ Now if you're like me as I know most of you are, the creative side is well let's just say it's a little bit tricky and possibly even a little bit scary. What do you say in your ad? How do you position it? What photographs do you use in your posts? There are so many questions that are kind of left unanswered. Is this something that can be learned is it something that can be simplified because if I'm going to grasp it if I'm going to do well with it, it needs to be simple let me tell you so we are going to dig into this I get to chat with the amazing Lauren Schwartz today who is a thought leader in creating profitable creatives. That's not easy to say! Who's a thought leader in creating profitable creative for those of us who run ecommerce businesses. Woah! I made it! This is why so he's dangerous doing it live, right? And Lauren has got to work with some amazing companies you should read her CV right. The who's who she has worked with. In other words, she is just the right person we need to talk to you about this topic and I have been looking forward to this conversation let me tell you since we did our pre call we always get talked to our guests before they come live on the show and I remember the pre call very well and let me tell you I am looking forward to this conversation. Now, before we get into it let me just play for you a quick video from one of our guests Jon Tilley, who was on the show a few weeks ago. Here's Jon:

Jon Tilley

Hey there it is good to be back! I am Jon Tilley, the CEO and Founder of zonguru.com it's an all in one platform for private label amazon sellers. We help you scale through data insights and automation and I was on episode 50, I think ,the first episode of season five with Matt and I mentioned on that that we would be integrating our toolset into amazon Europe and this is just a note to let you know that we are now live in Amazon Europe across our product research and our listing optimization tools. We are now the first software platform for Amazon sellers that is fully integrated across all tool sets for both amazon.com Amazon Europe and Amazon Australia. So check it out. You can go to zonguru.com and you can try it out for free. I hope you try it out and let us know if we can help you. Cheers!

Matt Edmundson

Excellent! Make sure you do check out Zon Guru. Jon's a great guy. They've got a great product. So do have a look at that. The other thing that you should check out as you can see on the screen if you're watching the video is the URL eCommercepodcast.net/conference2021. There is an ecommerce conference next week, let me tell you on the 15th of April and I'm on the panel along with people that have been on the show like Chloe Thomas. We are going to be on the panel for the eCommerce Conference 2021. You're not going to want to miss it, especially if you're an eCommerce, you're going to want to check that out. So check out that URL, eCommercepodcast.net/conference2021 and you will be able to find out all the information about it. If you would like to go, I think we may have one or two free tickets left. So the first people that contact me about that could possibly get them if they've not already gone. I'm not promising anything. I'm just saying there's a few free tickets if you want them, do get in touch and let me know. If on the other hand, you still want to go and you can't get the free tickets do come along, check out that URL be great. See you be great. See you there. I'm looking forward to be good. It's good to get in the conferencing again. Isn't it really quite enjoying this? Anyway, that's Jon, that's the conference back to our guest, Lauren. Now, you are definitely going to want to grab your notebooks. But if you can't right, you're driving along. You're running around the park listening to the podcast, wherever it is, you'll be pleased to know that all of the notes and links from today's show will be available as a free download the transcripts everything just head on over to our website, eCommercepodcast.net/59 to download them. We'll put all of those on there for your convenience. No email addresses required or all that sort of nonsense, just head over to the website. Check it out. So without further ado, let's bring on today's guest. I need to click my my button. I have a push button pad here on my desk normally and it's not working today. So the old fashioned way. So let's bring on today's guest, Lauren! How you doing?

Lauren Schwartz

Good. How are you?

Matt Edmundson

Yeah, good. It was all a bit of a chaotic beginning there. Anyway, we made it in the end. Thank you for joining us. It's great to have you beaming in from sunny California. To a very dark, kind of cool Liverpool. On the other side of the Atlantic. It's yeah, it's it's funny, isn't it? The different time zones you're having lunch? I've just eat my dinner. It's kind of weird how that works.

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, it's actually gloomy out here in California right now. It's looks like it's actually going to rain. So gloomy.

Matt Edmundson

I'm one of these people that has this naïve view that actually California is always sunny.

Lauren Schwartz

I mean, it mostly is like.

Matt Edmundson

Brilliant. So Have you always been in California? Or are you did you sort of emigrate there? How did that come about?

Lauren Schwartz

Now I'm born and raised. I've never left California. I mean, I think sometimes that I would like to leave and move someplace else. But then I go and visit other places and I'm like, nah, I'm good! It's so nice to hear. It's like there's never ever so it's hard to leave.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah, I can imagine I can imagine it's very hard to leave. There are certain places on the world, which I've had the pleasure of visiting. California is one of them. And I get the appeal. I do you kind of get stunning, beautiful part of the world. So you're living in gloomy, but usually sunny California. And yeah, and, you know, I said at the start that you've worked with quite a, you know, the who's who and all this sort of stuff and what you do, Lauren is sort of ad creative. That's what you do. It's your specialty. How did you get into that? I mean, did you just wake up one day and think, jeez, this is this is what I'll do for the rest of my life.

Lauren Schwartz

No, actually, it was a long road to get here. I have been in ecommerce for, you know, over 15 years doing pretty much everything from you know, emails, landing pages, you know, products, actual designer products. And I, you know, started working in social and just kind of fell in love with, you know, figuring out kind of how, you know, I can make products work and how I can, you know, get people to purchase the products. And I started working at an agency about you know, a couple years ago and just really fell in love with it. Like it was one of those things where it was it's kind of like a game to me. Like really figuring out the Facebook algorithm, and really figured out how I can get people to click on my ads and how I can get people to purchase is really kind of what drives me because it's it's really fun for me. Like it's fun to kind of beat my old creative that I had already worked on for you know, previously. So, yeah, I kind of just fell into it, and really enjoyed it and just, you know, basically kind of went from there and decided that this was kind of my passion. So yeah, I've been doing that for the last couple years. And it's it's been going great.

Matt Edmundson

Wow. Okay, so it's funny how many people start their stories with it was a long road into it. It was an interesting journey along the way, and we kind of had a few turns and pivots and we're kind of here. So you've kind of you've ended up here in this in this, I love that phrase the game. Yeah, I'd make an almost an amazing title, wouldn't it the game of sort of the gamification of how to do ad creatives? And I like that that approach of a game. I mean, do you approach it as a game because you'd like to win on things? Is that are you just is it more because it's fun?

Lauren Schwartz

Yes. It's more because I like to win. A very competitive spirit. And, you know, it is for me, just definitely, you know, I want to win. I want to win for my creators, like, I want them to out beat other creatives. And you know, at the end of the day, like all the clients I work with, I mean, obviously, you want to win for your client. So that's, you know, it's kind of just like that game of, Okay, well, let's figure out how we can out beat our last creatives that we launched, and, you know, how can we win in your account? So, yeah, for me, it's just because I am a very competitive person.

Matt Edmundson

So it's almost the ideal industry, isn't it? If you're quite competitive, it's like, right, I am taking on Facebook. I am like, I am David, Facebook is Goliath, and we are gonna win. It's kind of like, exactly, the algorithm is not gonna outsmart me. There is no way. Yeah, with all your might and being. So it's just a really interesting outlook to have, isn't it? And I like that approach, actually. It's like, how do I win? How do I make this week better than last week? On my, on my ads, and on my creative? So okay, so let's get into this. So I'm listening to the show, right? And I'm kind of I run my ecommerce business, and I'm dabbling a little bit with Facebook ads, I'm doing some Facebook ads, I'm getting a bit of success. It's kind of a bit, hit and miss. When you take on clients, so when you bring clients in, what are some of the like, the key instant things you go, right, 95% of businesses struggle with this, this thing here? Let's talk about that. What would that be?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing that people kind of get confused on is their features and their benefits. That's, I think, probably the biggest thing that I always see in accounts where people try to make their features and their benefits, the same thing. And really, it's two completely different things. The features of your product are what, what it actually does, like, you know, how it works, how it functions, and the benefits of your product is what it actually does for that consumer. And so, you know, how it, you know, basically benefits their life. And I think a lot of times, you know, when I do look at ad accounts, and I do see their creatives, they try to you know, clients try to compile everything into one, one ad. And it's too much information. And I think a lot of people just get very overwhelmed, and you know, they, they see it, and they're like, I don't understand what this product is. And then they just scroll right past it. So the biggest thing that I always tell any new client that I'm working with is we need to break down what your features and your benefits are, and really nail those down and make them as simple as possible. So that's kind of the first thing that I start out with is, how can you explain your features and your bits to me as if I were a child and make them as clear to ME as possible. And I think, once you can kind of identify those and make them clear and simple, I think you will start to like your creatives to be much better, like place and really start to kind of dial in what you're trying to tell to sell to your audience and what you're trying to actually tell them.

Matt Edmundson

Okay, so that's interesting. So, to be honest, that's not the answer I was expecting. So, which is actually quite fascinating. So the breaking down of features and benefits is is super critical. And the way you said it was you need to break them down to a point a child can understand them.

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson

How do I go about doing that? What what's the sort of the process there?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing that I always try to tell them is, like I said, Have your product, give it to someone who knows nothing about the brand that you know, either it could be some, you know, random, or whoever and just ask them okay, out like, do you like this product? How did it, you know, how does it work for you? What are, you know, try to explain to them the features. And basically, if you can explain that to them, and break it down in a way well, they're under well, that when they will understand it, then I think for them it's a little bit easier to try to pull that out of them. So like, if I'm talking to a stranger, and they have no idea what this product is, and I'm explaining it to them, and then they look at me and they're like, Okay, well, I still don't understand what this product is, then really, then you're like, Okay, then I'm making it way too complicated. Then, basically, kind of breaking it down, layer by layer of, okay, so does it turn on this way? Or does it you know, smell this way? Like, how can you make it so, so simple to explain to this random person that has never heard of you, if they can understand it, in this short amount of time. And I think then you just you've basically won your creative, you've won, like, breaking it down so simply that each person in your ad will make it even better. Like, it's just, it's so simple to just go over the top and explain everything all at once. That if you just slowly break it down piece by piece, and really talk to people and have them explain to you like, what they think it is or how they can you know, value your product, then you can kind of pull those like trigger words from from them. And get those you know, those kind of buzz words, I guess, and you can start to explain it in your creative and in your copy.

Matt Edmundson

Okay, wow. So if I'm, if I'm breaking it down to the point where a child could understand it, how does that how does that actually help me with my copy? Do you mean, taking it to that, that simplicity? Or that level of simplicity?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, I mean, when you think about it, if you're okay, so when you think of ad creative? How many times are you scrolling on your Instagram or Facebook and you go by it super, super fast, like you're just like scrolling, scrolling really fast. If I have this gigantic long paragraph that's in an actual text, Facebook ad, nine times out of 10, I'm not going to read that I'm not going to even attempt to go through that. So if I break it down into like, let's say four key points, I would probably read that. Or if I added that into the actual text overlay on the creative, I would read that and look at that faster than I would actually read an entire paragraph. I mean, really, at the end of the day, people don't like to read. And so if you're going to give them so much information, they're not going to read it. So breaking it down in those really kind of bullet points is much, much better for your creative and your copy.

Matt Edmundson

That's really interesting. I think for me also, there's the danger of assume knowledge isn't there that I because I've been around my product for so long. And I know that product inside out, do you know what I mean, it's Yeah, there's there's a level of knowledge as I have that I automatically assume everybody else has.

Lauren Schwartz

Exactly, yeah. Yeah, and I think that's where most business owners struggle with, is because you're so close to the product, that a lot of times, it's like, I know this product, like the back of my hand, but everybody else in the world does not know your product as well as you do. So that's why you have to break it down so simply that someone can understand it so quickly.

Matt Edmundson

That's really, really powerful is really good. I like that. So go find somebody you don't know and ask them to explain it for you. This is why it's really good. I mean, one of the things that I do on a regular basis is I actually, I will look at Amazon reviews of products that we sell similar products that we sell. And because the way the customer writes about them in the reviews, often is surprising, do you know what I mean, what they got out of it, the benefit that they've sort of received from that product. Not necessarily what I would have predicted, you know, and so yeah, that idea of giving it somebody else to read, I really like that to explain I think is actually quite is is brilliant. It's very, very good. Okay, so I've broken my product down into sort of its features and benefits, I'm understanding my product much more clearly. I'm understanding, if I can just pull it out of what you just said that when it comes to using ads, long text ads - let's condense that down, because people don't like to read. So what what's what should I be doing with that text based on what I know about my features and benefits?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, so a lot of times, instead of having those large paragraphs on the Facebook text, incorporate the key points into your ad creative. So again, people don't like to read it, they would much rather look at an image or a video that kind of breaks everything down. So if you have a product, and you want to kind of explain those things within your video and explain those features and benefits, you can do the same thing with text overlay. And having those bulleted points, having user generated content where people can kind of pull out those, you know, snippets for you, basically making it more interesting. So that, again, you're not having to read this long paragraph, you can see it in a video, you can see it in, you know, a static image, you can see it all right there, as opposed to having to read it. So that's kind of the big thing that, you know, again, like, as you're scrolling through your feed, you're not looking at text so much you're looking at what the actual creative is, and what kind of draws you into it. Like basically like what stops, you know, stops the scroll essentially.

Matt Edmundson

So is it the actual image or video that you use that kind of stops a scroll, and then I might read the sort of line of text above it once I've paused. Exactly. So is the primary purpose. And I don't know if I, if I'm wording this the right way. So if I'm being a plonker, just tell me I'm being stupid, but is the is the idea then of that creative, its primary purpose is to stop the scroll? Or you got something else in mind with that creative?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, so your first thing to do is to get them to stop them, just, you know, stop them scrolling. And then the second part is, how can I continue to have them watch my video. So again, that's, you know, that's my biggest thing that I have to work with on a daily basis is that I have to get people to watch my ad creatives longer than three seconds. I mean, people's attention span is second second, and then they go past it. If I can get you to watch my creatives four plus seconds, then I've at least done my job where I've got you interested in the product enough for you to either want to click to the landing page, or no, essentially, you've at least stopped long enough where you would get served another ad that I can again, start to give you more information. So yeah, essentially, what you're trying to do is to get them to stop the scroll and to you know, engage more within your within your video to want to get them to click.

Matt Edmundson

That's really fascinating. I'm the reason I keep looking down. By the way, in case you don't know, I have my notebook. I'm a pen and paper kinda guy. I'm busy making all kinds of and so now that's, that's really interesting. So the the ad has to stop the scroll, and then you've got to get them. It's interesting how and again, correct me if I'm wrong here. The way you're defining at least the first level of success is one, you've stopped the scroll and two you've watched the video for four seconds. Or more anything over three seconds, right? There are plenty I mean, in terms of success criteria, three seconds is not a long period of time, but obviously a lot of people are watching it for less than three seconds. Yeah. And and if I'm honest, three seconds. scares me, right. So if I'm creating my own ads, I'm like, how in the world do I communicate something within three seconds? Yeah, that gets them interested. Right? I mean, that's, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm looking like

Lauren Schwartz

That's where the game comes in.

Matt Edmundson

This is where the game. The game is afoot, to quote Sherlock Holmes. Yes. So this is where the game comes in. So, okay, well, let's talk about let's talk about, then what, what's sort of creative works well at stopping people's scroll?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, so right now, you know, with the rise of sort of, with the rise of Tik tok, I should say, and grammar rules, a lot of people are getting you to stop with kind of bad like, like one ad that we just did, where you kind of snap your fingers and like, the product appears in your hand, or you kind of do the reverse action where you like, drop the product, and then it like, appears in your hand. So like something that's sort of like quick and attention grabbing, and making sure that you're showing your product within the first three seconds. Like those are things that are getting people to stop scroll, like, really, it's just that, you know, sort of like quick sort of jolt in your feed of, you know, you see picture video picture and then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, this snapping in a product appears like that's something where it's like, oh, what is that and then you kind of want to engage a little bit more and watch it. So it's really kind of crazy. But you know, Tik Tok has been a huge influence for me lately with just really seeing what Tik Tok creators are doing and basically kind of replicating those trends into advertising. Because really at the end of the day, they know how to get your attention quickly. So I've really been kind of leaning into that sort of Tik Tok trend, and really just amplifying my ads that way.

Matt Edmundson

Wow. Okay, so that's a good tip- start watching Tik Tok. I'll tell my wife and my wife, why are you on yet another social media channel? Well, that's research babe. I'm learning how to get to stop the scroll. That almost sounds like a book title, Stop the Scroll. Anyway. So, so I've clicked my fingers, the product has appeared. And so what are you doing in that three seconds to capture their attention? I mean, you've you've stopped the scroll. So you, that's, I'm imagining that's a split second that so? I don't know what frame Facebook is? Is it like 30 frames a second in the video or something like that? So yeah, you're talking what 15? half a second. 15 frames, say? So now I've got the rest of those frames to fill out. What am I thinking here? What what sort of tactics are you using?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, so usually what I do is, if I so within the first two seconds, someone, I'm actually creating an ad. I am showing you the product, I'm either asking a question, or I'm giving you some, you know, quick sort of like attention grabbing headline, or I'm putting in the best feature of this product, or I'm giving you some sort of great review. So really, it's you know, it's kind of those, those key elements that you can put in within the first two seconds. And eventually, you will get people to kind of follow along and want to look at more of the video. So getting you to stop within that half a second and then boom. Next thing you kind of point out within that first two seconds is either, you know, like I said, great headline, a great review, or, you know, some sort of great benefit or feature.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah. So I've got I noted four things here, Lauren, asking questions, attention grabbing headlines, the best feature or benefit, or a customer review. So let's say I've got those four things. Are you building then ads for each one of those four things and testing which one pulls? Or are you just kind of using the force knowing full well, which one's going to work best for your audience?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, again, I think it kind of depends on like the brand. If I've been working with you for a while I know what's going to work in the account and just kind of seeing but if it's a brand new client, then yes, and definitely taking all four of those and testing those in a creative campaign to really see which one gets people to click faster. And then basically taking those learnings and kind of building off of those and expanding on those.

Matt Edmundson

Okay, that's really interesting. Now. So, here's a question for you. So far, we're about three seconds in, right? How long are these videos that you do typically, for your ad creatives? Are they three seconds and that's it or are they like, four minutes? I mean, how long are they normally?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, so it's actually kind of crazy last year in 2020, you know, 15 seconds was the sweet spot. Usually, like I wouldn't go past 15 seconds. But again, because of Tik Tok and everyone wanting to get the information so fast, I'm actually doing creatives now that are six to 10 seconds. So you really have to like drive that point home in less than 15 seconds now. So people's attention span just is not there anymore. And they know that they're going to get served, you know a remarketing ad eventually, so yeah, it's pretty it's a pretty short timeframe for sure.

Matt Edmundson

So the time, it sounds like, is getting smaller and smaller and smaller, right? So yes, you've got to you've got to make that time count more and more and more you got to be less lazy with each of those frames. But I mean, down to six seconds from 15 that's quite fascinating, isn't it? How that's and do you think it's going to carry on shrinking? I mean, obviously it's gonna there's gonna come a point where it doesn't make sense to shrink any further but do you think there's still going to shave a few seconds off?

Lauren Schwartz

I mean, gosh, I hope not because six seconds is already so short as it is. I mean, if we got down to like four like, geez, I don't even know what I would serve you anymore. But um, yeah, I mean, I think I hope it doesn't get down there but I do think six seconds is going to be kind of where we're staying for a while. But I will say that I think you know, as you kind of go more into like your, you know, prospecting and remarketing. I do tend to make my remarketing videos a little bit longer. Again, 15 to 20 seconds to get more information out there because again, like I did, you know, you do stop the scroll, you do get them to click, but then again, you you're going to continue to serve them ads. And so that's kind of where you can get more into like your 15 second videos, kind of as you serve more ads to them.

Matt Edmundson

Okay, so I want to get into that much more but let me ask you a quick question. First, how long does it take you? Right? And this is the reason I'm asking this is for all the guys and girls out there running an e commerce businesses that have people do it for them? How long does it take you to create a six second ad?

Lauren Schwartz

Sometimes it can take me up to an hour to create a six second ad. Be nice to your creatives.

Matt Edmundson

Six seconds, why am I going to bill for this for six seconds? The shorter it gets, and I've noticed this actually having done a lot of public speaking in my lifetime. Public speaking is getting shorter and shorter and shorter. And so it used to be you talk for, you know, an hour and then it became half an hour. And then Ted came along and it was 18 minutes. And now, now it's like 13. And it's kind of like, I find that the preparation to talk for 13 minutes is so much more than the preparation you need to talk for 30. Yeah, I mean, it takes a lot more intentionality, it takes a lot more thinking through what am I going to actually say? Because it is shorter. And I imagine, I correct me if I'm wrong. This is the same with the with the ad creative. You're you can't afford to be lazy here.

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's a lot of times when Yeah, it is only six seconds. But again, like you said, like I have to get you to click, I mean, I have to get you to purchase and I have to get you to the website. So a lot of times it is very important for me to you know, find the right video clip, find the right quote or find the right copy to put on the creative that, yeah, like it does take me, you know, an hour, sometimes an hour and a half. And then I have to, you know, put that all together. So it definitely does take me a long time because there is a lot of thought work that goes into ad creatives. I I think it's funny. Some people I think, think that ad creatives are just like, oh, you throw it together in like two seconds. It's like no, this literally takes me like a couple hours to do.

Matt Edmundson

Very carefully, especially as the time Yeah, shorter. So the the ads then this creative, right? We've stopped the scroll, we've got somebody to watch for like three or four seconds, at the end of that six seconds. So I get that there's a question in that video, or there's a feature benefit. Does that creative close out with a call to action? Or is the purpose of that video to get you to stop long enough, get you're intrigued enough that you read the headline, and the the text underneath? You see what I mean, I'm just trying to figure out what I'm thinking with that creative.

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, so always you want to have a call to action. I mean, really, that's again, that's what you do in eCommerce is you want the person to purchase or you want them to learn more or, you know, depending on what the product is, you know, eventually you want them to go to your website. And so I think a lot of times to, you know, people who do own e commerce businesses, they want to put so much money into their Facebook ad creatives, which in Facebook, you know, to get them to get to their website. But you also have to think about the landing page as well. Because really, you're not going to have all the information on these ads in this copy. So you can give them enough information that they will click and then they can go on to your landing page and learn even more. I mean, really, at the end of the day, that's that's what you're trying to do is you're trying to get them to learn more about your product and to build trust with that person to get them to purchase the product. So yes, you you know, you do need to have the right amount of information to get them to your landing page. So I definitely think that never never take your landing page, landing pages and your website for granted because those are what are going to you know, really get that person to buy.

Matt Edmundson

That's really, okay. So the I'm just sort of thinking this through that call to action. There's a we had a guest on the show a few weeks ago called Gabby and we were talking about email marketing. And Gabby said something really interesting to me about email marketing. And her general consensus was when it came to writing emails, a lot of people would try and sell the product in the email, do you know what I mean. Its like we're trying to create it so you're, you're ready to buy after reading this email. And her her her thinking was and I hope I'm doing Gabby justice here by by interpreting this the right way. And her thinking was actually no you don't sell the product, you sell the click. In other words, the purpose of the email is to get them through to the website. And there's there's many reasons why she thought this one because of email reputation, you've got a click two if you try to put so much information in the email, people just aren't going to read, do you know what I mean, this is always like, what do I need to do to get them to the next stage? And then for the email, the next stage is going to the website. Is that true with ads? Or is it is it? Do you need to be a bit more full on in the ads in terms of they need to be a bit more ready to buy?

Lauren Schwartz

I mean, again, I think it depends on the product. But I do agree with Gabby's approach is that yes, like you are selling the click, because you want to get them to your website. And again, that's where I, you know, I really try to stress to people who I work with is that, make sure you're getting good landing pages, you know, really have information on there that people can research themselves and understand more about your product, because I'm only going to get you so far in advertising, by getting people to your site. But if you don't do the rest of the job and fill out the information on your landing page, then really you're not doing yourself justice, by paying for the you know, paying for Facebook, because really, at the end of the day, like you have to sell the product on your website. So yes, like you are selling that click of getting those people to the landing pages.

Matt Edmundson

Okay, that's good to know. So the, what are you writing in those two lines of text above the creative? I'm kind of curious, though, what sort of things do we need to be thinking about?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, so it's funny, you know, some of the stuff that has been working really well is like, you know, I do a lot of skincare, hair products, you know, stuff like that. And it's really like the holy grail of, or the best product, you know, ever or stuff like that, like that kind of stuff, like, really resonates with people, and it always gets people to kind of stop. The Holy Grail has really been working a lot in skincare lately. I think I use that for almost everything.

Matt Edmundson

Is that because we're coming up to Easter? I say is there a link?

Lauren Schwartz

Honestly, I don't know. But it works for some reason. So, um, but yeah, stuff like that, really, you know, gets people to stop. And, you know, just kind of asking questions, you know, there's a product I work with, where it's a journaling product. And, and a lot of people don't understand what it actually does, how it how it benefits you. And so, really, their main thing is, you know, it's, it's kind of one of those questions of how is this going to help me. So it's kind of like the best self help product, you know, or like, the best creative self help product like, something like that, where it's, you know, people are like, oh, like, it's a creative self help, like, I don't understand what that means. And then they kind of want to dive more into, like, what that actually means. So kind of trying to find those sort of terms, where you kind of like, scratch your head and go, Well, I don't understand what that means. So let me kind of dive more into this. You know, it's kind of those sort of headlines that I think people kind of resonate more with, because they just don't understand. And it's that kind of curiosity that piques people to get them to want to, you know, dive further in.

Matt Edmundson

Well, that's really fascinating, because you've instantly created a juxtaposition between what you said right at the start, which is you need to be able to explain it to a child, they need you need. But now we're kind of like, actually, you need that clarity. But you also need to create a level of intrigue that wants them to find out more.

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, it's again, that's where the game comes in. You just never know, like, what is gonna resonate, like, again, sometimes it's it is drawing out those quick features and benefits, making it very clear. And then it is kind of that sort of like, Oh, well, what is that like curiosity type of, you know, creative, but again, like, I think that's where Facebook is so great, is that you can have sort of those bulleted points in the text copy of Facebook, but then you can also ask the question in your creative, and so it's kind of like, you're kind of getting both in one, if that makes sense. Like, you're kind of getting that intrigue with the creative, but then you're also kind of answering some of those questions in the text copy. Or vice versa. You know, it's it's one of those things where like, I think that's kind of the great thing about Facebook, and working in advertising is that you can kind of level everything in and make it interesting. And then you kind of have this like whole compiled ad where you just you want to you want to know more basically.

Matt Edmundson

That's really yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm fascinated with this whole topic. So if I back up maybe 10 15 minutes, one of the things that you mentioned as you know somebody is going to watch this for like three or four seconds and then you're going to retarget them you're going to remarket to them you're going to show them another ad but that second ad you're maybe using a creative that's maybe 10 to 15 seconds versus you know the six to eight seconds, but do the principles are the same sort of principles apply when your remarketing or do they change slightly?

Lauren Schwartz

They do change a little bit because you know with remarketing they have already engaged with your product a little bit whether they you know kind of did go through the ad or hover on the ad they maybe did click on to your website so they kind of already know a little bit of information so at least here this is kind of where for retargeting you can kind of pump them for you know more with reviews and talking about the product or even some like PR hits if you have some great PR hits that you have and and again just really kind of diving more into the features and the benefits really giving the value props of kind of what your product is just giving them more information basically about what the product is so it is a little bit different different with remarketing because they already kind of engaged a little bit and they already kind of know about your product.

Matt Edmundson

Okay so how does, I find myself saying every time you say some that's really interesting and it genuinely I realise I'm saying it's I'm trying to stop say but it's really interesting. So I get the remarketing is a little bit different. What about targeting existing customers again the rules I daresay change a little bit there as well?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah so existing customers again it's kind of the same thing. Here you can dive a little bit further into your brand story, if you want. That's something that you know if they've already purchased from you they already kind of know the product they already know how how great it is maybe there's something that you kind of want to tell them about your brand that maybe they just don't know about you know or if there's an affiliation that they work with kind of diving more into like that sort of aspect and again, that's kind of where you can start to do more of like your sale targeting as well so like if you have flash sales that's where you kind of want to go into your existing audience because you already know they're going to purchase from you so let's give them this great flash sale or you know whatever sort of sale you're kind of targeting just because at that point they are going to purchase again and they are going to you know fill up on whatever product or selling them. If I do I do like to say i don't like adding sales into prospecting because really Ii feel like if you bombard a new customer with sales they're always going to expect that sort of sale messaging and it's really bad to kind of get people into your bucket you know starting off with a sale. So I really like really try not to you know push sales at the beginning. That's definitely more into your existing audience for sure.

Matt Edmundson

That's super wise. I concur. Definitely avoid using sales to get new customers and it creates the wrong expectations going forward but you can add value but definitely don't take money off is my is my my theory. No, I like that so that I mean and I guess we've talked predominantly about Facebook do the rules apply for Instagram the same as Facebook or is there some different theology for Instagram?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah I mean there is. Definitely with you know Instagram users or user generated content is you know that's obviously the biggest thing as you're going through your stories I can you don't want to look like you're being sold to you want to look like someone just posted it as a story and they're talking about this product so that definitely is where user generated content comes in is because it's so great for Instagram and it's just one of those things where you're like oh you just think it's another story on your feed.

Matt Edmundson

Okay so do you find then that ads for Instagram stories are more effective than ads for Instagram posts?

Lauren Schwartz

Again, I think it varies for the brand but you know at the end of the day yes usually Instagram does do a little bit better Instagram stories because when you think about it more people now are on Instagram stories as opposed to scrolling through their feed. So you can hit them more in the stories feed than you can actually on their Instagram feed. So I do say you know if you are an ad if you are doing digital marketing any time i give my client an ad creative I always give them a feed version and an V version because then we can put it in together and see which one does better and I mean 9times out of 10 the Instagram vertical one is going to do better than the feed one it's just how just how it works.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah I totally get that you know i just thought it was me I rarely scroll down my Instagram feed anymore I just got so used to just the stories or the swiping you know you're boring yeah and yeah I can see the power of that. I'm just rapidly trying to think through my head the last time I clicked on an ad in either my Facebook or Instagram feed what it was that caught my attention and I what I need to do is start making a note of the things which catch my attention why they actually I think I'm the easiest person to sell to in some respects but um. So the on the Facebook feed so you've got your ad creative on the Facebook feed, as we've been talking in my head this creative is been square in shape and you've just mentioned for the Instagram stories like the you know the the portrait version or the vertical format is is becoming trendily known as yeah is that right have I know what's in my head but I want to make sure that what in my head what's in my head is correct.

Lauren Schwartz

Yes that is correct yeah yeah so you have the square version and then yeah the portrait version or vertical version. ad creatives

Matt Edmundson

Yeah portrait and landscape and so the video I can see I'm picturing it in my head the clicking the fingers the product appearing the quote or the question four seconds you know click to learn more and you know the so and so forth. Music, not music? Is this video quiet is that people talking how do you see that working?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah so I do always add music but it is a pretty known statistic that about 80% of people don't actually have their sound on so anytime you do have any sort of talking anything always make sure you caption your videos because a lot of times that you know I do see some pretty large brands that have you know this great video that they've produced or this like great UGC and they don't have any sort of captions on there and then when you actually click on it to hear the sound there's so much great information that you're like oh well I don't even know you're talking about just some random person talking so I always you know make sure to caption any sort of video or if you don't necessarily want to obviously add every single caption we do what we like to call branded captions where you're kind of pulling out those key points so that if I'm actually looking at the video I don't necessarily have to hear everything or like see or read everything I can just read like the things you want to actually call out. Yeah so yeah always make sure you have some sort of caption on there you know in your video.

Matt Edmundson

Wow wow Lauren listen you have been like super generous with with your knowledge I feel like I could go away and write Facebook campaigns. Now I'm not going to but I feel that is the main thing you've made it sound I said at the start it needed to be simple and I can get all of what you've talked about which is helpful for me. Is there anything else that we need to think about on this whole ad creative thing that we've not covered that is actually super important

Lauren Schwartz

I think probably one thing would be your static images as well. We you know we were talking a lot about video but always make sure that you know if you do have creatives always make sure you have a really good static or still image photography lifestyle photography or any sort of product photography because again you can tell so much in a great still image and I think a lot of times brand owners don't think that they think they have to get you with the video and really they can get you with a static image a lot of you know the creatives I do our static imagery outperforms our video creative sometimes so I think that's just something to always know is that just don't ever underestimate you're still photography.

Matt Edmundson

That's okay so the so the plan would be then let's test both the static and the video on an ad and see which one performs best for our audience.

Lauren Schwartz

Exactly.

Matt Edmundson

Yep because it's not given that one is going to outperform the other and if you've been surprised if you've have you found like you know you've done something useful actually I thought the video was gonna do super well here but it kind of tanked but there's still image just kind of took off for whatever reason.

Lauren Schwartz

Oh, yeah, that happens all the time. Sometimes it's really frustrating because I spent so much time on this like video and then this still image like outperforms for like, months. It's really annoying.

Matt Edmundson

If my crystal ball would have been working ahead of time. Yeah, I could have predicted this. Okay. Okay, that's, that's fantastic. So test the videos, test the images. Is there anything else from your point of view that we should cover in the last few minutes here? Or have we just sucked everything out?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, like you said, test. Just test always test your creatives, you'll you'll be surprised at what you'll learn.

Matt Edmundson

That's fantastic. That's absolutely. Listen, like I say you've been super generous, sharing your insight and knowledge with us Lauren. And I kind of feel like we should make a regular appointment to have you on the show because I figure in six months time, all of this will have changed significantly. Here we go again. So if you're listening to this towards the latter end of 2021, maybe look out for the second version. How do you how do people reach out to you? How do people get hold of you if they want to connect with you? Because I'm sure many people will, listening to this.

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, so theloft325, that's my company. All my handles are @theloft325. You know, pretty much anything there. If you ever have questions, I'm always happy to answer any questions to anyone who reaches out.

Matt Edmundson

That's fantastic, theloft325. Why theloft325?

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, so that actually my business started when I lived in a small loft, and the address was 325 so, just kind of stuck with me.

Matt Edmundson

Followed you around, you've never been able to. And of course, the domain name will undoubtedly be available when you were searching for it. That's always the big. That's always the big. Listen, Lauren, thank you so so much for coming on the show. Thank you for sharing everything that you've sort of talked about here been really helpful. And I I'm speaking now as someone who runs an ecommerce business, and there's people that create at, you know, the door, the ad creatives, and I kind of I've liked what you've talked about, I'm not technically going to do it. I'm not gonna lie, but I know what to look out for now. And I think that's really helpful. And if you're using an agency, you know, the kind of things to look out for. And I think if you're if you're like me, you're listening to this and thinking, that's all great. I still don't want to do it. Well then reach out to Lauren and her agency I'm sure they'll be happy to help because that's brilliant. You've told me what I need to do but there's just no way. I definitely need some help creating a six second video. How does that even work? Anyway! But yeah, so Lauren, listen, I feel like I'm a stuck record. But thank you so much for being super generous with us. I really, really appreciate it. And we hope to see you again soon.

Lauren Schwartz

Yeah, thank you so much.

Matt Edmundson

Thanks a lot. Bye for now. Bye. Well, wasn't Lauren great. I mean, genuinely great. I hope I hope I didn't you know go go be on the boat special, super generous. I mean, super, super generous. And you know what? I love that I love that about our guests I love that about Lauren. You know, I always want to find something real and practical, something I can use in my own ecommerce businesses. And if you're a regular to the show, you will know that on Fridays, we have our team meeting and in our team meeting, we review the lessons that we learned from our podcast guests. And so tomorrow we are going to be talking about creatives. Oh yes, we're going to be doing a little bit of a review around the ad creatives that we use, what's working, what's not working? Why is it not working to too much text? You know, the six second rule, all those sorts of things. So I hope you caught us nuggets out of this and some great stuff. If you did, like I said at the start, please share it out with your friends rate us on iTunes, if you watch on Facebook or YouTube, like comment and share and all that good stuff, as it will help us grow and get more great guests on the show willing to share some amazing stuff. All of the notes from Lauren, including her links to her website or agency, all the social media links that you can reach out to her on will be on the website, including the transcript from today's show, if you weren't enabled, if you weren't, if you weren't enabled, if you weren't able to take all the notes, you kind of think Oh, I wish I had got that down just head over to eCommercepodcast.net/59. You can get the transcript word for word. You can copy, do all those kinds of things that you want to do and put those in your own note programme. And just let's work on our ad creative guys. Let's get out there and let's start getting people to our landing pages and converting them to be an ecommerce clients. That's it from me. Thank you so much for listening to the show. I've really enjoyed tonight. Really, really looking forward to make sure you come back next week as we carry on our conversations with all kinds of amazing people on how to grow their online business. That's it for me. My name is Matt Edmundson. Thanks for being a part of the e commerce podcast.