Reimagining eCommerce With Content-Driven Marketplaces | Alex Back

[EP] - Alex Back

Matt Edmundson: [00:00:00] Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson. Now this is a show all about helping you deliver eCommerce wow. And to do that, I'm chatting with Alex back from coach dot, no, not coach, couch, get the domain name right. Couch! You're from a different country now, lad. Couch.

Couch. Couch. com! You get the right accent. That's, that's pretty impressive, Alex, not gonna lie. From Couch. com, we're gonna be talking about his eCommerce journey. Uh, here's, well I'm gonna read this by him in just a second, but you're gonna want to grab your notebooks, but before you do, let me tell you a warm welcome to you.

If this is your first time with us, it's great that you're here. Love the fact we're getting new people every week joining us and the show's getting bigger. Which [00:01:00] is a beautiful thing on so many levels. And if that's you, a warm welcome to you. I'm genuinely pleased that you're with us. If you haven't done so yet, check out the website ecommercepodcast.

net where you can sign up for the newsletter. The newsletter which is evolving, dear listener. Yes it is. If you want all the tips, tricks, all the notes, all the funky stuff from today's podcast coming straight to your inbox, sign up to the newsletter. And we're going to be adding a few more things in there, you know, a few more tips and tricks for e commerce.

So you're definitely going to want to subscribe to that. Head over to eCommercePodcast. net where you can find out more information because why would you not want to? Yes. Okay, so let's talk about Alex. Now, Alex is the visionary CEO and founder of Couch. com, the latest game changer in the quest for the perfect couch at unbeatable prices.

With a track record of transforming the eCommerce furniture scene, Alex previously co piloted Apartment 2B from its [00:02:00] infancy to a whopping 40 million dollar empire, whopping, oh yes. Now armed with the insight, now armed with the insight and experience, Alex is tackling the age old dilemma that has confounded the world.

Many a comfy seeker, far and wide. Where on earth do I score an awesome couch? So, buckle up for a cosy ride, grab your blanket, grab your cup of tea. Oh yes, because we're heading to Furniture Nirvana, because with Couch. com, finding your dream couch is no longer just a dream. Love that. That's one of the best intros we've had for a long time.

Alex, welcome to the show, man. Great to have you. How are you doing?

Alex Back: Best intro indeed. If they gave out Webby Awards for best intro to podcasts, I think you should be on that nominations list, Matt. Unbelievable.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah. I wish I could claim credit for that. I really do. But, um, I can't. It's the team. The awesome team.

So you are in, we were talking before we hit the record button, you're on the other side of the Atlantic, aren't you? [00:03:00]

Alex Back: Yeah, I'm all the way on the Pacific. I live in Los Angeles, California.

Matt Edmundson: Where the weather is sunny and the weather is warm and the sun is shining and the night is setting here. So a warm, warm welcome to you.

Tell me, um, have you always been in LA? Were you sort of born and bred there or are you an import?

Alex Back: Great question. Most people in LA are imports. from other places. It is usually the entertainment business and, or the sunshine, sometimes the surfing that brings people here. But, um, I'm from New York city, so I had a big, you know, two big cities, but a pretty, pretty big life change when I was younger.

I've lived here for about 20 years and I've split my life in one place and the other and very interesting places to be from. Brooklyn, New York,

Matt Edmundson: LA. Yeah, I mean you can't get any further away from New York and still stay in the continental United States, can you?

Alex Back: Yeah, somehow my parents haven't [00:04:00] taken it personally yet, but I really think they should.

I mean, when you do the math, it is quite literally. Yeah, yeah.

Matt Edmundson: I have, um, I have two sons, uh, both of which are currently at university and one of them went to St Andrews, one of them went to Exeter. Now I appreciate you might not know the geography of the British Isles, but I live in Liverpool and you cannot get further away from Liverpool, really, uh, further north than St Andrews and you can't get any further away, really south.

So, um, I, I said, I said to my boys, I'm not quite sure what it is you're trying to tell me, but I'm not that impressed, children. And they just laughed at me. Well, sometimes,

Alex Back: well, sometimes Matt, you got to look in the mirror and figure out why certain things might be happening, I guess.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely. I just, I don't know if I'll ever find it out, if I'm honest with you.

So, so did your, um, Let's start with your journey with Apartment 2B because you have exited that [00:05:00] business. You obviously were involved in this in that as a starter. What is Apartment 2B for those that might not know? Leave me in that journey a little bit.

Alex Back: Absolutely. So Apartment 2B is a Still around today.

It's a popular e commerce direct to consumer furniture brand. Um, and, uh, we started at the time where independent furniture brands were not aplenty. Um, in fact, in 2010, 2011, when we were turning the lights on, even some of the largest, the largest retail, retail furniture brand in the world, IKEA, was not yet doing any sort of eCommerce transacting online.

Their website existed as sort of like an online showroom. Um, and that was very, very common back then because the biggest barrier to entry was sort of just to get people to buy furniture online or, or make a large purchase. So we came a long way from that.

Matt Edmundson: So how do you, [00:06:00] let's talk about that then because I, I mean, I, I've, my eCommerce career started in 2002 and if I look at it, Alex, one of the things that I can consistently tell you is I'm really good at selling small repeatable products, right?

Not couches, not furniture, um, tiny little things that fit in tiny little boxes. Uh, so you came along, it is a bit of a game changer. Game Changer. What caused you to sort of think, I don't know, let's go sell dining room tables and chairs online and see what happens?

Alex Back: Well, it's a pretty good story. My, uh, business partner and co founder of Apartment 2B, he sort of grew up in the furniture industry, right?

His dad was a manufacturer, sales rep, like a Willy Loman type who's, you know, on the road, calling on different accounts. And Matt ended up getting into the furniture industry after college. He ran a popular retail store here in LA and then, um, went and became a manufacturer sales rep, kind of like his old man.

Um, he was working for this [00:07:00] old school, like big bubba recliner. Company. In fact, they had, it's called, it was called Straddle Lounger. And they were some of the first recliners that ever were, you know, motion couches that had ever, uh, come to market before La-Z-Boy. Um, and they, uh, they were doing very well.

He was selling a lot of couches on, in coastal California. That was his. His territory as a sales rep. And then he gets an email out of the blue. Someone wanted to open an online account. It's like, okay, well, that's interesting. He called up the factory in Mississippi and asked them, Hey, do you mind if I open up this online account?

Do we have any online accounts? So like, No, we don't have anybody. So go take a crack at it, son. So he goes out, he opens up this account, asks them what they needed to, to do so. He's like, well, would you like to have an opening order? They're like, well, no, we, we don't need any inventory. We just need images and, uh, you know, product detail on the spreadsheet.

So he gives them the spreadsheet. He gives them the images. Two days [00:08:00] later, he wakes up to the first order. Three days later, he wakes up to three orders. Four days later, ten orders. And it just compounded from there. All going one sofa here, one sofa there to different parts of the U. S. Um, that's when we realized there was a lot of opportunity, uh, to be, to be had in this industry.

And this was something that was really taken off. That entity, that online retailer, was called CSN Stores, which is now Wayfair. Ah, okay. So it just goes to show how we felt like our finger was right on the pulse of something very big. That's pretty much all we had at the time. We didn't know what the heck we were doing, to be honest with you.

But we figured it out.

Matt Edmundson: Now, so where did the name Apartment 2B come from?

Alex Back: Well, we were kind of searching for like a catchy name and that, that related to our original business model. We pivoted a number of times and, you know, sort of for minor ways, we always just sold furniture, but to, you know, demographic change and the [00:09:00] price point change, but originally it was supposed to be like an apartment.

Furnishing solution, right? A whole home solution for everything you need for your apartment. We used to sell dishes. We used to sell towels, um, in addition to the furniture and all of these sort of complete home packages. The knickknacks. Choose. Nicknack, pattywacket, no, yes, all the knickknacks and, uh, we, all the things you would need for your home.

We, we did for a few years, um, inventoried some of it. We, we re we sold it. I shipped many boxes myself and packed, you know, a lot of packing dishes is not a fun thing, Matt. I can tell you. No, I can't imagine. Personal experience. Anyway, so we did that for a while. It was for apartment living. And the idea was that, you know, sort of like a double entendre apartment to be, it was like a place, this virtualized place that the store existed and also your apartment that will be when you, not the, [00:10:00] not the, you know, most ingenious business, um, but it was cute and catchy and it

Matt Edmundson: worked.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It works on so many levels. It works, which is great. So that was 2010, 2011, right? If I understand the date, so fast forward 13 years, you are now couch. com, which I have to say is probably one of the most amazing domain names out there. I can see that, you know, uh, being worth a few bob, but the.

So what happened in the, in the, the apartment two B grew. You exited and then you thought, well, let's get back in it and do couch

Alex Back: Let's get back in it. . Uh, let's gonna get back in and do couch. Yeah, let's get back on that horse. Yeah, that's, lemme back on that horse. I mean, that's basically what happened. Uh, no really it was so, so yeah, we, we grew the company and we bootstrapped it for. Uh, about seven or eight years and we're approached by a, uh, mid major retail chain here in the States.

That is, um, that was looking to sort of, [00:11:00] you know, beef up their online presence and understand eCommerce better and make, um, make an acquisition, uh, that would sort of benefit both parties. And it really worked. Like we came in and had the operational infrastructure of a much larger company with, you know, 700 employees.

Uh, well, we, we had at the time of acquisition, probably under 20. Um, and they benefited from us in many ways. I was in an executive team meeting for four years. We all learned a lot and we achieved a lot. And, um, after four years of staying on as COO, it was time for me to move on.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Alex Back: So I did, and I didn't want to do anything in furniture, um, because customers, um, you know, they're customers and, um, but, uh, but I sort of had an epiphany and it was on a, on a trip I took to Norway, I was just sort of like walking the streets of Oslo by myself, solo trip, and, uh, [00:12:00] And I was thinking about couch.

com and something hit me that like. This is something that I, if I got this domain, I can make this into something much bigger and much more scalable than the world that I sort of had been in. I'm just a singular direct to consumer brand.

Mm

Alex Back: hmm. This is a platform for the entire industry to benefit from, where the users can come and get education about where and how to buy a couch.

This thing that, as you mentioned before, is not a repeatable purchase or, or, or, you know, regular purchase. It is something that happens over, you know, five, six, seven years in between each purchase. So people are generally very, very under, under educated about how to do, how to do this thing, how to buy the right couch for them.

And on the other side, advertisers are just like clamoring to find these users because there's no regularity to it. Going to a place that's hard to find where the usual suspects [00:13:00] might be. Um, and there's very little repeat business as well. So as advertisers, we're constantly acquiring new users, paying top dollar for them and, uh, wasting a lot, uh, from an ROI perspective on marketing dollars that, that are not being allocated properly.

Um, so I'm intending to bring in the users that are looking for couches, And I'm intending for the advertisers of the industry, all the retailers, like the ones that I used to run, um, to be very happy to have some very warm leads of people who are ready to put their butts in some couches. In

Matt Edmundson: some couches.

No, I love it. So this is what fascinates me here. I got a lot of questions for you, uh, if I'm honest. Um, You went down the traditional eCommerce route, right, uh, where you're, you're buying product, you're selling product, you're selling to customers online, direct to consumer, you're shipping it out, um, or you're using, you know, uh, companies that do that.

But in effect, it's, I would call it traditional eCom, right? But [00:14:00] what you've moved into now It's not traditional like for like eCommerce, I mean, it's, you're still in effect doing something online, but you've approached it in a slightly different way. And I'm, I'm curious to know why, why it's done in a different way.

Why did you not just go, well, buy couch. com because that's a brilliant domain and I'll put couches on it and flog them to end users again. I'm kind of curious what your thinking was in that.

Alex Back: Yeah. I think the biggest thing is that I believe the opportunity. www. aurionmedia. com You know, would go up against my former brand.

I mean, I can certainly do that. And I have some tricks up my sleeve to, to probably make it successful, but it's a very crowded and competitive space. Um, it's also, wasn't terribly interesting to me anymore because while I could come up with some sort of creative concept that maybe would have, you know, got my [00:15:00] juices flowing and ultimately, um, I'd be sort of repeating the same model that I had already done, you know, so.

So that, that just allowed me to think outside the box a little, right. Knowing that I didn't want to do the exact same thing. And then I just started like thinking I probably made some lists and I listened to them. You know, I wrote pretty bright notes everywhere and I probably wrote some notes down about, you know, how I can leverage my experience, my, my unique sort of positioning in this market.

I'm understanding the user, understanding the manufacturing side of things, understanding large retailers, small retailers, online brick and mortar. And how do I bring it all together and what's really needed? And so, like I described, I think, I think there truly is a huge opportunity here. Um, and uh, um, the industry mostly, mostly on the industry side, like the industry and the retailers, there's very little, very little branding in furniture.

Um, so it's really hard for customers to, to know where to buy stuff [00:16:00] and it's hard for retailers to know how to market it. So to create a platform that brings all the retailers together, and if you come to me, I'm going to tell you which brands are the real deal. Deal. And which ones aren't, which ones are a good deal for the price and which ones are overpriced?

Mm-Hmm.

Alex Back: Um, what's a, you know, what's, what are the best retailers that you should consider for that pink tufted couch that's gonna be good for cats that you need in two days in your home? There's not a lot of retailers that could to serve that specific need, but our intention in our marketplace and, and, and, and, um.

Brand database that we're creating and putting together is to allow users to find those things more easily. That's really intriguing. I, I'm, I'm

Matt Edmundson: kind of, I, I see the rise of marketplaces more and more. You know, I, I think England is probably a little bit sheltered when it comes. Comes to marketplaces, unlike possibly Europe and the states which are bigger, I mean bigger landmass, you know, [00:17:00] um, whereas England is a tiny country.

Um, but I, I think that the rise of marketplaces fascinates me. And, and, and you've decided to sort of go down this road and

how do you, how do you do what you do in the sense of, I'm imagining you are focusing much more on the content of the website and on getting advertisers. For the site versus, I'm thinking about, you know, website optimization, for example. I'm, I'm assuming there are some subtle changes in your thinking that have had to occur

Alex Back: big time.

So I think with a marketplace, a true marketplace where you're taking people's money and. Either connecting them with a retailer or, you know, covering some part of the transaction. Um, that's a whole different beast, especially in furniture. There are so much, there's so much logistics and customer care that [00:18:00] goes behind a successful furniture transaction that, and I've seen it happen being on the other side.

We were involved in, you name a marketplace, I've had some experience with it. And in every case, If you take someone's money, you're going to be on the hook for that purchase and you're going to have to focus a lot of your effort and resources on doing that. Case in point, at my company. By the end when I left, you know, we had, we were part of a much larger company, but the part that I managed directly had 40 employees and about 34 of them were focused on customer care, operations, logistics.

I had five or six people on product, product, merchandising, eCommerce, and marketing. Just to give you a sense, the percentage breakdown is so heavily weighted in the operational area. So I wanted to focus on what I think we can do best without getting, you know, sort of blinded by, um, by the marketplace or eCommerce aspects of it, as much as those are very comfortable to me.

I want to challenge us to [00:19:00] do something, do something better than what someone else is doing out there. And I know that we can do this better, which is focused on content, as you said, um, really doing a great job of user acquisition and organic user acquisition from a non paid sort on paid sources, um, and, and ultimately serving the customer best by, by having a, a, a laser focus on the industry and the best retailers.

Um, and not just like finding tricky ways to get them to convert on our site. Yeah,

Matt Edmundson: yeah. Well, I, I'm loving the idea and I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm fascinated. How long have you been doing couch. com?

Alex Back: So right now when we're recording this, it's the end of April. Um, I acquired the domain back in July. I stood up what we have now, which is currently a WordPress site.

Um, That I basically built myself with a few, a few friends and, uh, and colleagues. And, [00:20:00] and we, we have content up there. So for the last six to nine months, we've been just like writing content, making videos, optimizing the content. We're doing a lot of SEO related tasks, a lot of backlinks, a lot of outreach, a lot of different, different tips and tricks to get us ranking with Google.

That's been our main focus as I work with my tech partner to build a brand. The ultimate platform, which has, you know, as you can tell from everything I've said about it, we have some, you know, pretty scalable ideas and big scope concepts that we're trying to achieve. So it wasn't just like a Shopify theme and, you know, turn the lights on type of situation.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, no fair. I'm curious though, why WordPress? It's not a name I've heard for a while actually, WordPress.

Alex Back: Uh, only simply because this was a content only site that we were standing up. Uh, we are moving it to the Shopify platform, actually. Which when you talk to content marketers, they would say the same thing that that's [00:21:00] not a website, that's not a platform that they've heard of very much.

So we're sort of in a, in an identity shift in a way, um, certainly in the eyes of Google, as we move to a completely different platform and sort of self identify more as a marketplace than a content site. Um, but we are in the place now where. Yeah, WordPress was literally just to get content up and get it ranking and it's working.

Um, we're, you know, we ranking for a lot of very high value terms, um, that had we just waited to launch the ultimate platform, we would, we wouldn't be doing. So I'm really happy that we got started when we did as difficult as it has been to ride the wave, um, and figure it all out. But we're in a good spot right now.

Matt Edmundson: I, what I love Alex about what you're saying is that actually. We just started and we started to get some content on there and we started to figure this out as we go along because I think one of the things so many [00:22:00] people do is they want to have all their ducks in a row before they launch, don't they?

That this has got to be right, that's got to be right, this has got to be right. And I'm imagining, and correct me if I'm wrong, that over the last however many months, you know, eight, nine months this has been live, you've made an awful lot of sort of smaller pivots along the way to get to where you are now.

Had you have waited until now, do you think the product would be? As good as it is?

Alex Back: I love that question. I've listened, you know, in the last year, all I did when I left my last company, I took my shirt off. We're very similarly complex. I've never had a tan before in my life. I don't know, have you had a tan before in your life?

Matt Edmundson: I've had what they call the red tan. Uh, I get burnt very, very easily. Like, yeah, the red tan. Yeah.

Yeah.

Alex Back: Obviously me too. Yeah. So, But, I was like, I'm getting a tan, all I did was play basketball outside, exercise, and listen to a million business books in my ear the whole day. And listen to, [00:23:00] you know, probably hundreds of startup stories.

Show me a startup who hasn't pivoted that's incredibly successful. I would be shocked, shocked because, um, and some of the best ones are the ones that have remained nimble enough mentally to be able to make a shift when a shift is necessary. So approaching this business as an iterative process is, I think, like, uh, One of my superpowers right now, like I don't really care, Matt, how we get there.

If this is going to hit first, if we're right now, we're focused on brand reviews. I don't think that that's the essence of what the best, the best value that we can offer, but if that's our quickest path to monetization right now, yeah, okay. Let's focus on that for a few months and then we can move on to the other stuff.

Um, I know that ultimately this concept is going to provide a lot of value. Um, I'm not married to any one specific vision of couch. com. In fact, I'm, I'm, I'm averse to it. Really. I want it to [00:24:00] be very iterative in nature.

Matt Edmundson: Do you, if you don't mind me asking, when you exited, uh, uh, Apartment 2B, I'm assuming that that gave you a level of financial independence and has that then giving you a security maybe to play around with this a bit more, that.

But maybe you didn't have to say, for example, with apartment 2B, you know, um, I, I, I'm kind of curious where you are with that.

Alex Back: Yeah. Well, I'll tell you something. It costs a lot to stand outside without your shirt on playing basketball all day. You got two kids in private school. I've been bleeding money for the last year, my friend.

No doubt. No doubt. Had a divorce in the mix as well. And you can imagine things can be a bit tricky. However, yes, of course. And I think, um, thinking about, you know, Thinking for a founder or someone in business to think about an exit as an [00:25:00] opportunity to invest further in themselves and their own careers is a great way to think about it.

I think everyone just like the default is you think about laying on the beach or buying a house, you know, whatever. Um, and then I talked to a lot of people who have just use, use this to get to the next, to the next level, much like any, any good investment. I mean, you start somewhere in the stock market and something hits and then you, you can either cash out or you can reinvest it and keep going.

And that's the path that I chose.

Matt Edmundson: Now, a very similar story. I've exited a few business and each time you exit, you, you take that capital event and I think you invest it into the next phase of you really. And I. Investing in yourself, I think, is always a, is a, it's not always a safe bet, but I think it, it makes the most sense to me, and so, exactly what you've said, and it, I'm, I am curious though, Alex, if you, it's, we obviously get people listening to the show at very different places in their, in their walk in their eCommerce journey.

Some are just [00:26:00] starting out, some are bootstrapping, some are, you know, 100 million companies, we know. So, I'm curious. If you were doing what you're doing now, but you didn't have the money, you know, you needed to pay the mortgage pretty soon and you were working, you know, your normal job and this was a side hustle or whatever, what advice would you give yourself?

Alex Back: Oh, well, there's a lot. There's a lot of advice I'd give myself. But the first thing I'm thinking about is, because we just talked about it, um, I gave the example of, you know, me sort of going after brand reviews right now, um, because that is the quickest path to monetization. Now why is that the quickest path, just a quick aside, it's because we're catching users or customers at the lower funnel part of their journey when they're close.

Closing in they're interested in a certain brand, they're researching it and we're hitting them there. Um, and then sort of capitalizing on that, influencing their purchase and taking a [00:27:00] commission or performance based revenue, advertising revenue as a result. Um, but uh, but that's an example of doing something that I, you know, I feel like okay about.

I'm not, I don't, I don't love this concept. Ultimately I want to help people find. Where to buy couches. I don't want to help them, you know, what was the deal necessarily. So, um, this is an example of, you know, just, I wouldn't call it a pivot. It's just a focus on something that's the reality of the situation is I need to be revenue positive soon with this company.

Um, Not only for my own personal, personal stake in the game, but also just to prove the concept that this is a business that can make money, that there is a model here that's worth continuing to invest in. So it's ultimately just a representative of, of accepting the reality of your situation, right? You may have some lofty goals.

You may have the best, you know, New wireless headphone. First thing came to my mind. Um, but [00:28:00] if you need to maybe, you know, go a different, a different route to cut corners in the beginning just to get, get to phase one, that doesn't mean you can't get to phase two taking a completely different path than you thought.

You don't have to achieve, you know, the, the, your full scale idea or concept out of the gate. You can take baby steps. No one really cares. It's all about how you sell it to them in the future. Um, You know, no one's going to look back at every, every little thing you ever did. You know, you got to support yourself.

You've got to stay healthy and mentally focused. So if you need to, if you need to, you know, go resell wireless headphones for a little while, rather than creating your own, or maybe selling the ones that you think are the best ones that are not Apple AirPods out there, and that's your focus just to get on the map

and

Alex Back: make some money right away.

Great. If you need to go sell them on the street and spend two hours a day hawking them on the street, fine, even better. It's just, you know, humbling yourself enough to know [00:29:00] that you don't have to like go for your big idea right away.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. No, I love that. Do you think that, um, the, the path that you've gone down where you're, I mean, you're very focused on, on your content, you know, a few years ago in eCom that the buzzword was content marketing.

It sort of seems to fizzled off slightly now. But if I was going to sell, say, wireless headphones. Um, and I, I, I, one option is I could retail some other stuff, but if I guess I'm doing it a side hustle and I don't need to make money this month, would it make sense for me to invest in a content marketing strategy where I am starting to put content out there in wireless headphones?

Um, knowing that there is going to be, I don't know, three, six months before I really start to see an uplift in traffic.

Alex Back: That is a tough one. And I talked a lot about this with, um, colleagues in eCommerce recently. When do you invest in SEO?

Um,

Alex Back: content marketing or whatever you want to call it. When do you invest in organic?

I think social media is a good example too. [00:30:00] If you have a business that needs to make money quickly, when you know that you could go to paid advertise, you'd go to Meta or Google and probably like get something going for your business. Um, a little bit sooner. Where is your time best spent? It's really, it's a double edged sword.

I think for me, if I had to do one thing differently early on in my former company, it would be, I would triple down. On SEO

because

Alex Back: mind you, hindsight is 20, 20. It's a beautiful thing. If I knew we were going to be around 13, 14, 15 years later, I mean, like, okay, this is a business that's going to last. If we invest now, we are literally going to, if we invest now in SEO hardcore, we are going to save so much money, millions of dollars in the future, millions it could have saved users that we were acquiring from a paid advertising Platform where we could have just gotten them organically off of their Google search.

[00:31:00] Um, we got beat on so many, so many things. We, we, we, we were no slouches. We held our own from an SEO perspective, but that would be, you know, for longterm, for a longterm play, I think it's absolutely worth it. Um, but in the short term, I think it's, you know, it's sort of like anything else. It's resource allocation.

Right. Do I want to spend all my time right now having awesome conversations with people like you? I do. That's what I really, what I want to do, but I probably should be doing other things too with my time. So it's all a balance of, I think what you can spend your time on.

Matt Edmundson: Fair enough. I was always told you when people ask me that question, when's the best time to invest in SEO?

The answer was always 20 years ago, but if you can't do it 20 years ago, do it right now. Um, it's always one of those, isn't it? What are some of the, I'm curious then, because there's been a bit of a seismic shift for you in getting into the content in the last eight, nine months. What's your top, I don't know, one, two, three tips on SEO, things that you have discovered in the last few months learning about this and [00:32:00] growingcouch.

com?

Alex Back: Yeah, great question. I think a couple of things. One, taking a fairly focused approach is, uh, way easier to do than doing sort of a blanketed, I call it spray and pray, um, you know, approach. Like for instance, in the furniture space, there are tons of keywords that have tons of search volume where users are searching for new couch, couch.

How To Buy A Sofa, How To Clean My Couch.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Alex Back: And when we started back in the, in the summer, we were sort of going after each of them. We're throwing spaghetti at the wall and we're seeing what's stuck. And now it's, it's a quite clear what we're able to rank for and what we aren't. And now that we have a focus strategy, We are, we're able to, you know, get certain pages from, you know, uh, the number eight spot up to number three for certain [00:33:00] terms.

We're focusing on single articles. And what that is is overall it's, it's, it's, um, it is a vote of confidence for quality. Over quantity. And I think honestly, that's the name of the game in SEO right now. Having one article, that's the best freaking article about cleaning your couch or having the best freaking article about wireless headphones in the industry is better than writing a thousand articles about wireless headphones and the adjacent keywords.

I think doing something that's real, that is not AI, all the kind, all the insider networks that I'm in. Everybody's super. Super against AI content right now, not just because it's of its current, um, detectability, but also its future detectability. This is a problem, major problem for Google that Google needs to solve.

And it's just going to get tougher for AI, um, to get through. So that's another thing, but [00:34:00] ultimately it's part of the same concept of quality. Over quantity is what sort of what everybody I'm listening to and talking to that's what they're talking about right now. That's a

Matt Edmundson: It's always been the case. I think well, I'm gonna say it's always been the case you know, these these things come and go in sort of fads and cycles don't they but Do you use AI at all in your content creation?

Do you use it as a start? Do you use it for idea generation? Or are you just literally, no, I'm going to research these keywords and I'm going to, me, myself and I am going to put on my wireless headphones, list some music and create the best content.

Alex Back: Okay. We're definitely starting a wireless headphone business.

Yeah. I feel like we're getting ranked. We

Matt Edmundson: get, we put the transcript on the website. We're getting ranked for wireless

headphones. How to

Matt Edmundson: buy the best wireless headphones. How To Buy The Best Wireless Headphones For Small Ears, How To Buy The Best Wireless Headphones For Big Ears. I figure someone's going to find us.

Alex Back: The best wireless headphones to clean your [00:35:00] ears, Matt.

I love that. That's something we were discussing before we started recording. Yeah, it's bizarre. Anyway,

okay,

Alex Back: all right, um, yeah, I, we, okay, we used AI a lot in, in our content and creation. Um, it's sort of, sort of as an extrapolation of doing keyword research, right? Keyword research in itself, in and of itself, is sort of a version of AI.

You're saying, what are the people searching for the most? You're asking a question and getting quick answers to it, okay? So, now you have the terms that are most searched, or the ones you want to focus on. Okay, well, Give me some information about this. I mean, I could go research it myself. I would say doing, using AI to do research and compiling thoughts and ideas is probably pretty safe.

I think everyone agrees on that. It's just when you don't really put any sort of [00:36:00] any other thought or tied together in a way that is actually useful for people. So that was really the litmus test for us. To be honest, most of the articles that we're ranking for are probably a little too AI heavy. Um, and you know, I, I think we may not have as long of a runway on some of those as I would hope.

Um, so the, and as I see a lot of our content. People in my, in people in my part of the content industry right now, they're going back and making things better. You know, you don't have only, you don't get just one chance and you're done. Yeah, yeah. You can go back in and mess with stuff. But ultimately I think using AI as a tool to help you, um, is great.

But even the best content marketers who have made millions of dollars, um, in these networking groups that I'm in, sort of gaming the system. They're afraid of this game right now and they are, they would rather sit there for four hours and write a really nice article with all the old school [00:37:00] tactics and techniques than try to game up, game the system by using AI to do it.

Yeah.

Alex Back: Um, I have one really good idea, which I think other people have validated too. And you mentioned transcript before. I think doing this type of thing, like I have a lot of couch knowledge in my head and I know a lot of people who know a lot about couch. Yeah. So what I've been doing recently, I don't have a podcast per se yet, but I do have been recording videos with people in my industry.

I did one this morning with the CEO of a manufacturer. We had a great conversation. Get the transcripts from that and ask AI to summarize that transcript of absolute real human material into something that is accessible. You know, a short synopsis. To me, I think that's safe so far, but nobody really knows.

I hope that made some sense and was helpful. Yeah, no,

Matt Edmundson: absolutely. Absolutely. I'm intrigued where AI is going, especially in the light of all the Google changes around content. [00:38:00] I was just curious to get your thoughts. If I could circle back maybe before we sort of, uh, round off here, Alex, because I feel I'm aware of time enough.

I'm just scratching the surface again with my questions. Um, when you X to Department 2B, looking back, What's one piece of advice that you wish you'd had that you didn't, um, have, that would maybe help that process be a little bit better, smoother, more enjoyable?

Alex Back: I just couldn't get out of my own way. I want to do everything myself. And I think, you know, people, and then you, everybody will give you the same advice, like, You can't do it all yourself. You have to rely on others. You must delegate. You must delegate. We all know that, like, even if you're not in business or eCommerce, like that's [00:39:00] something, this is almost common knowledge or common sense at this point.

I think what's the difference is, is investing the amount in, investing the amount of time that it takes to find the right people to delegate to and investing the money. That it takes to pay those people to do their job the right way. I was always sort of averse to delegating. I'm like, okay, but they can't, they can't do this.

Like I can spend 10 hours showing, but they, but they show me nothing that tells me that they can do this part of my job that I do like adequately. Well, I think that was ultimately my fault because I didn't invest or see the bigger picture enough to. To hire and, and surround myself with the right types of people right now, as I'm sort of trying to figure out exactly specifically how I'm scaling couch.

com, I want to go, I'm trying to find the best people, people that know things that I truly have no idea about and have them fill gaps that, you know, I probably [00:40:00] could fill if I tried hard enough, but Um, you know, I'm looking for a content marketing, I still use that term, content marketing, essay, SEO guru partner to be a partner of mine.

Now I've taken this, taken it to where. You know, we're seeing some growth, but I need someone to help take it to the next level. I think using other people to help you is key.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. A lesson I feel like I am still learning, uh, and will continue to learn, no doubt, for the next 20 years of my life.

Yeah,

Matt Edmundson: I might get there. I don't know. I don't know. I just don't know. Um, Alex, listen, uh, we have this new segment, this new slot, uh, where, which we, uh, At the moment, we're calling Ask Matt. At some point, I will, I will use the beautiful AI and come up with a better name for it. I've just not had a chance. And this is where you get to ask me a question, but I answer it on social media.

So if you could ask me one question that I would answer, what would that question be good, sir?

Alex Back: Well, you've mentioned exiting a number of [00:41:00] companies. I knew that about you already. And I think, um, you know, we already discussed it a little bit about, About, you know, of how one positions himself to do something more.

Um, or do something greater and use their former experience as a springboard or catapult to the next level. Um, what do you, do you, what do you feel like drives you forward after exits? What is it personally about you and how maybe there's a more, maybe there's a relatable sort of anecdote or lesson or idea or concept that the listeners would, would appreciate?

What is, what is your driving force? I mean, why are you not sitting on a beach right now somewhere?

Matt Edmundson: Very good question. I will answer that on social media, of course, uh, part of the answer. Sneak preview. I just enjoy talking to people like your good self. Why would I not want to do that? Uh, it's been quite fun.

Alex, listen, genuinely loved the conversation. It has really been good fun and I, I appreciate you coming on and sharing the [00:42:00] stories, man. Uh, it's been really great to meet you. If people want to reach you out, if they want to find out more about you, obviously couch. com is sort of self explanatory really, but, um, yeah, what's the best way to do that?

Alex Back: I'm a very communicative person. If you can't tell I'm a big talker. Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm very open to anyone reaching out to me on LinkedIn. I'm incredibly easy to find Alex back couch. com. Um, and my email address is Alex at couch. com. So I'm very happy to hear from anyone who has a question, an idea, a thought, some feedback, an opportunity.

Anything, anything at all, I, I have a big inbox, but I get back to every single person that ever reaches out to me. So I'm not at the level where I can't do that anymore. So I love hearing from people and I love talking to people just like you said, so please reach

Matt Edmundson: out. Fantastic. We will of course put all of that information in the show notes as well, because why would we not, right?

Uh, but Alex, listen, [00:43:00] man, it has been an absolute pleasure, an absolute joy. Uh, I, I've laughed a lot, which is always a good sign. So thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for making me laugh. Thank you for the wireless headphones that clean your ears idea. Genuinely appreciate that. People listening to this podcast going, what are you talking about?

Well, look, there's nothing out there like it, Matt, you know that. Yeah, there will be soon, I just, oh absolutely brilliant, but genuine man, thanks for coming on, you are an absolute legend and I really appreciate it. Thank you. Same to you, sir. Well, there you have it. What a great conversation. Huge thanks again to Alex for joining me today.

Now be sure to follow the eCommerce Podcast wherever you get your point, because of course we've got some more great conversations lined up and I don't want you to miss any of them. And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first. You are awesome. Yes, you are. Created by me. Awesome. It's just a burden you have to bear.

Alex has to bear it. [00:44:00] I've got to bear it. You've got to bear it as well. Now the eCommerce Podcast is produced by Podjunction. You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. The team, the beautiful legendary team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon and Tanya Hutzlack.

Our theme music was written by Josh Edmundson. And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show notes that Head over to the website ecommercepodcast. net where instantly you can sign up for the weekly newsletter. I'll be telling you more about the changes to the newsletter coming up.

So, uh, if you're subscribed to the show, you'll find out more about them, or if you subscribe to the newsletter, you'll also find out about them. So just go check that out, but that's it from me. That's it from Alex. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a fantastic week, wherever you are in the world. I'll see you next time.

Bye. Bye for [00:45:00] now.