From Startup to Growth | Maureen Mwangi

Matt Edmundson

Well good evening and welcome to the live recording of the eCommerce podcast with me, your host for the day or for the evening, Matt Edmundson. Yes. Welcome to the show. Now, this is basically the show's pre amble. This is on the live stream, this doesn't appear on the audio recording. So we are going to be recording the eCommerce podcast, which is an audio podcast, but we live stream it out at the same time because you know, why not in this day and age. So if you are joining us on the live stream, great to see you glad you're here. Do let us know where you're watching from in the comments, do say hi. Always great to hear from people. And obviously if you've got any questions as we go through, feel the freedom to ask them. It'd be great to hear what questions you've got now. Just so you know, the way this is gonna work is in just a few short seconds time, I am going to be playing like a musical intro type thing, which we've got for the show. I'm then gonna introduce the show. And then I'll be back. You know, it kind of feels like I'm introducing myself twice. But I just wanted to let you know this is the live recording of the podcast what's going on you dear listeners and dear viewers get to sort of sneak behind the scenes a little bit I suppose. So that that like I say don't forget to you know, like it comment, do all those kind of share things if you want to but do ask your questions if you want to. You know if anything comes up you kind of thing. I have a question for Maureen, who's going to be tonight's guests. Wack 'em in! We love to answer them. Right. All of that said without further ado, I'm looking for the button on my control pad. So we're just about to start, like I say the live recording of the eCommerce podcast. This is episode number 62. Let's begin.

Sadaf Beynon

Welcome to the e commerce podcast with Matt Edmundson, a show that brings you regular interviews, tips and tools for building your business online.

Matt Edmundson

Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce podcast with me your host Matt Edmundson. Now whether you are just starting out in the world of ecommerce or whether you're, you know, a bit like me, as they like to call me in the office a bit of a dinosaur, so they call me in the office now, as I've been around a while, in the world of ecommerce and digital business, yes, if you've been like me, great, if you're new, great, it's great to see you. It's great that you're here. This show is all about helping you develop and grow your online businesses. That's what we do. That's why we're here, right? So you're in the right place, if that applies to you. Now, every week I get to talk to amazing people from the world of ecommerce, I get to ask them all kinds of questions about what they know, and how it's going to help us develop on life, which is what we're here for. Right? I say that I try and have the conversation that you would have with them, if you got to sit down and have a cup of coffee with them. Okay. So that's the plan. That's the aim. I kind of like to dig into their story I like to learn, you know, what they know stuck out the principles that is going to help us start and adapt and grow our own online business. Now, if you're a regular to the show, you will know that as we go through, I also take notes with my trusty pen and paper, even in this digital age, I still use pen and paper. And if you're like me, and you like to take notes, fantastic. If you can't, don't panic, because we've got you covered. Oh, yes, we have, you'll be able to get all of the notes from today's show on our website. So we put the transcripts, any links, you know, that will come up in the show links to a guest. I'm going to introduce I guess in just a second. But all of that stuff is in our show notes. And you can get them just by going to eCommerce podcast.net/62. Because this is episode number 62 already? Oh, yes, it is. So do go and get those. Okay. Now, if you enjoy the content, if you enjoy the show, then I would appreciate it if you like it. If you're watching it online, if you don't know you're listening to the audio version, which is no I know, I know from the numbers that that's where majority the people consume this show is on the podcast. And I don't blame you because someone once said to me, I've got a beautiful face for radio. Oh, yes. But I know that some of you also watch the videos, we put the video of the of the recording out on YouTube, which you can get @youtube.com/eCommerce podcast, you can watch that there. You can see it on Facebook. And if you're so inclined, we record these podcasts every Thursday evening at 7pm here in the UK, which means because we have a regular time slot we also live stream the recording? Yes, we do. So if you're around at that sort of time, then why not come check us out on the livestream either on YouTube or Facebook? Because they get to join in ask your questions and all kinds of stuff. Okay. So, what are we getting into this week? Well, on this week's eCommerce podcast, we are talking about how to take your ecommerce business from startup to growth. Okay, that's where we're heading. That's what we're wanting to do. You know, when you're kind of first starting a business? I don't know if you like me, I've started a few over my time, but you can't you want to know, what do I need to do to get me from sort of this point zero from ground zero to I don't know, maybe a few 100 bucks in sales? Or what do I need to do? When my business starts to grow? And I start to have a little bit of success? How do I scale? What do I think about? While these are questions that we're getting into this week as I get to chat with Maureen Mwangi about the importance of focusing on each stage of the business and resisting the urge? Yes, you heard me right, resisting the urge to scale prematurely. I could tell you a few stories about that. Let me tell you now Maureen is the brand growth strategist behind some of America's most beloved brands, like L'Oreal dove and Lay's Not that I know who Lay's is in the UK, actually, they think they make chips, as you'd call them in the states crisps as we'd call them in the UK from memory. Anyway, I recognise Durban L'Oreal, and Maureen's worked with them and she's a creator of the big brand Academy, the product profit lab and Starwood, they start that again, start word consulting, a consulting firm dedicated to teaching product based entrepreneurs, the sales and marketing strategies they need to scale with scientific precision. Love that. So you can turn your product brands into household names. That's what Maureen does. That's her track record. That's her background, which makes her a perfect guest for the show. It says here that Maureen zone of genius I love these phrases. Maureen zone of genius is her rare ability to connect with a market and turn real data into brand growth strategies that drive multimillion dollar growth. Wow. Okay, so super, super excited to have Maureen on the show. She is definitely the right kind of guest that we want. So like I said at the start, grab your notebooks. And if you can't head on over to eCommercepodcast.net/62 to get all of the notes, the links and everything, including, and I'll mention it later, at the end of the show, this week's giveaway you are not going to want to miss this one. Maureen's got a great giveaway. giveaway, I think I need to come up with a better name. Anyway, you kind of get the you kind of get what I mean. That's coming up at the end of the show. I will explain to you what that's all about. So make sure you stay tuned for that. So all of that said, let me let me let's just bring Maureen on show without further ado. Here is Maureen Maureen, welcome to the show. Great to have you.

Maureen Mwangi

Thank you for having me here, Matt. I'm so excited to come here and share my experience.

Matt Edmundson

Oh, I love it. So excited to be here. Absolutely. No, it's great to have you really appreciate it. Now for those of those of us who are curious to know whereabouts are you beaming in from whereabouts in the world are you right now?

Maureen Mwangi

I am live here from Dallas, Texas in the US.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah, Dallas, Texas! You know what, I have some really, really good friends who live in Dallas. Love them to bits, really wonderful people. And I've had the fortune of spending a bit of time with them in Dallas flying over a few times to see them. And the first time that I got to Dallas, they said to me, you know, what do you want to do while you're here? And of course, we did the usual stuff. We went to the football stadium and I looked at the big colossal football stadium. But the most important thing for me was to take a trip to Southfork Ranch when they filmed the 80s TV show, Dallas. I don't know if you've been out that far. But that was a real treat for me, let me tell you.

Maureen Mwangi

Oh my god, did you have a Did you at least try to have some barbecue? You always have to barbecuing?

Matt Edmundson

Oh, yeah. I mean, we did we did the barbecue thing. Yeah, we had some amazing. Let ME tell you it was some amazing food. There's no doubt in my mind that and you know what? Now you've mentioned that I'm hungry again. So some barbecue yeah that's brilliant. Brilliant. How long have you been in Texas for Dallas?

Maureen Mwangi

I've been I've been in Texas for just about two years. But I feel like I've just always lived in a new state every two years. So when I moved to the US, I was in New York. Then I moved to Stamford, Connecticut, then I moved to Washington DC, then I landed in Texas, I don't know where I'll be in the next few years.

Matt Edmundson

Have you got like a What do they call it now you know, the itchy feet syndrome where you feel where you kind of you're like Jack Reacher, you know from the novel is every every now, you just have to keep moving on, keep moving on.

Maureen Mwangi

I think for me, it's opportunities have forced me to move. Like I always get opportunities presented to me. And I love trying new experiences or just jumping in and I'm like, let me go and learn and see what I'm going to take out of this place.

Matt Edmundson

Well, you know what I mean, that attitude right there, right, I think is what separates people who are entrepreneurial from everybody else in a lot of respects. It's the ability to see an opportunity and go, let me have at it for a little while. Let's have a go see what happens. I don't know. I don't know. I've got a I've got a hopeful feeling. I've got an optimistic outlook. But we just don't know, let's have a go. And I love that. I love that. So Have you always been like that?

Maureen Mwangi

I have always been like that. But I also do understand that I have some entrepreneurial blood inside of me because both my parents are entrepreneurs. They've been entrepreneurs since I was born. So all I know is risk taking, identifying an opportunity and just jumping in.

Matt Edmundson

I hats off to your parents for doing that. Marvellous way to bring up children understanding risk taken as an opportunity. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. So what would you say? And I'm just curious here. What's the biggest risk you've taken so far?

Maureen Mwangi

My biggest risk I've taken so far is packing up my bags, two suitcases from Kenya and relocating to the US with no family here.

Matt Edmundson

And you did that? Did you say what, four, six years ago somewhere around there?

Maureen Mwangi

No, no, no, seven years ago.

Matt Edmundson

Seven years ago. And so and what? What drove you to is to pack up your bags and move from Kenya to the States. It wasn't the weather obviously.

Maureen Mwangi

No, I wanted to pursue higher education. I've always really wanted to learn outside of Kenya and the US and the UK would provide those opportunities. So I applied to both countries, applied to both places but ended up getting accepted in the in the US. So I moved to a small town called Rochester, New York that is completely cold. So imagine moving from the tropics to negative temperatures never seen snow. I don't know anybody, like literally it was like the most scariest thing I've ever done in my life. But it opened up doors that otherwise I would not have been able to see open.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah. Now be honest with me, Maureen, how has the weather of Dallas, Texas also influenced you in moving down south

Maureen Mwangi

150%!

Matt Edmundson

So what you're saying is, there's it's not just risk and opportunity. It's also the temperature of the weather and you mix those three things together. And that's where you're heading. Right.

Maureen Mwangi

Exactly.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah. So it's unlikely to be Alaska, your next stop.

Maureen Mwangi

Oh, no.

Matt Edmundson

That's great. So you've been in the states and seven years. And so your biggest risk was obviously moving from Kenya and I take it your family's still in Kenya or have they moved.

Maureen Mwangi

Yes. Okay. They're still, everyone is still in Kenya.

Matt Edmundson

So have you found it, I guess I you know, has it been difficult for you to head back and see the family overlock down?

Maureen Mwangi

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We so I have a very interesting story. I was supposed to have my wedding last year. And then lockdown happened six weeks before my wedding. So yes, so since lockdown happened, we haven't had a chance to see our parents, we actually thought we would go in December. Then there was a spike when COVID came, then we thought it would go this year, they actually have a lock down in Kenya because they're having a surge in the COVID numbers. It's literally like a roller coaster. So right now my husband and I like we're just gonna wait and see what happens. You know, it might be two or three years since we go back.

Matt Edmundson

I'm sorry to hear that. But did did the wedding. Go ahead?

Maureen Mwangi

No, it still hasn't happened? Well, but we did our cultural wedding. So. So we had just done our cultural wedding. So we were going for the official white gown wedding, six weeks before COVID. lockdown.

Matt Edmundson

Okay, and was that the one? Was that going to draw all the family in? Kenya to do that?

Maureen Mwangi

Yes, yes. Wow. Wow. Because Because culturally, in our community, you are technically supposed to get married where the girl's family is. So my husband's family is in the US, but my family is in Kenya. So because my parents are there. We have to get married there. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah. Well, I hope the doors open up for you soon. Because, you know, no girl should ever have to wait for a wedding. Yeah, I didn't say I didn't. I didn't read that script in all the stories. But yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. But hopefully, hopefully it'll come off soon. Geez. I got married. My wife and I this is not related to eCommerce. And if you're tuning into the show, we are an eCommerce podcast, and we will get the eCommerce. My wife and I have literally this week just celebrated our 23rd wedding anniversary. So yeah, she's not killed me. And that's no, that's let me tell you, that's a miracle. Right. She's a remarkable woman. That that puts up with a lot for me, that's for sure. So yeah, fascinating, fascinating. Anyway, let's talk about eCommerce, and specifically business. So when we did the pre call Maureen and and again, regulars to the show will know that what happens is I always have like a separate call with our guests. And we kind of have a conversation for 20-30 minutes, figuring out what we're going to talk about on the show. And during that conversation, we talked a lot about moving from startup to this growth thing, hence the title for the show. So what is it about this, this moving through stages that that draws you in?

Maureen Mwangi

That's a really good question. And it's because through my experience being in this space, I have seen that people make a lot of mistakes when they're starting. So they're not able to grow and scale their ecommerce businesses, like they traditionally should be able to do so. And I think this is I'm biassed because I have worked with a big brand. So I have been able to see how they move a baby idea to a multimillion dollar brand. So seeing the growth journey and also coming into the entrepreneurial space and seeing what entrepreneurs are doing I quickly noticed there's a disconnect. Okay. And that was like it's time for me to put this message out there, because everybody who wants to be an entrepreneur is entitled to having a successful business. But the reason people don't have successful businesses is because they don't have the knowledge and the understanding of what they need to do at each stage of growth in their entrepreneurial journey.

Matt Edmundson

That's, that's in a nutshell, right there, isn't it? Because I still, you know, have been running ecommerce businesses for almost 20 years, right? I mean, that's a long old time in the digital world. And yeah, I kind of still feel a little bit like a beginner, do you know what I mean and and it's, and it's, it is interesting when you look at what the big brands do with their massive multi million dollar budgets and see how they, how they drive things forward. So you mentioned that you see a lot of mistakes made when people are starting. So what are some of the key mistakes that we are likely to make?

Maureen Mwangi

The biggest mistake I have seen is entrepreneurs thinking that because they already have a product on hand, they have a business. So and what am I saying, if anybody who has an idea, the first thing in the ecommerce space is to run and buy the product, without thinking about what needs to happen before you get the product. That's mistake number one. Mistake mistake number two is a lot of trial and error. So there's this behaviour where people are piecing fragmented information from different industries, from different sources, trying to see which one actually works, but not understanding that each business is unique. And because your business and your concept and your concept idea and your brand is unique, you really need to take time to develop and create a growth strategy and plan. Just because another entrepreneur did one thing doesn't mean that you can copy and paste what they did and see the same success.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah, no, I see that a lot. I see that, especially in the YouTube world where there's 10,000 stories on YouTube about a guy who, you know, went from zero to hero quite quickly, and we kind of watch that do the same stuff. And of course, it doesn't work out. So you will see that a lot in this. Okay, so let me let me just so the first mistake you talked about is this belief that if you've got a product, you've got a business. What, let's dig into that a little bit more. What do you what do you mean by that?

Maureen Mwangi

What I mean, is the first thing as an upcoming entrepreneur is supposed to think about how do I build a community to to get people to rally behind this product or want to create? Because at the end of the day, that product that you're seeking to bring to market is going to be sold to a person and to a number of people. Yeah, so it's how do I create that community? How do I identify that customer? How should I become the voice of the customer, so that I can have a cult like raving fan of people ready to buy before I bring the product. When on the flip side, people have the product, then they go and look for identify who's actually going to buy. And so when you do that strategy, you tend to get so overwhelmed, so frustrated, when people don't buy, then you get into this cycle of promoting discounting, adding more things, and then you become so confused than you initially are, were when you are getting into this journey.

Matt Edmundson

I'm with you. So if I if I just echoed back where I've heard you say there Maureen, what what you're talking about is tradition, and I I've seen this 1000 times, right? So I'm just gonna pull out something random off my desk here. So I've got I use this all the time, I've got a little Lego figure, it's Indiana Jones. So let's say I'm, I'm going to go and I've got these I've got 1000 of these. And I think cool, and I'm going to put them online and sell them. And I'm going to go and try and find people to buy them. That's the traditionally. If I've heard what you've said correctly, what you're saying is actually I need to be concerned first and foremost about building that community first before the product. Is that right? Yes. Okay, so how do I how do I? How do I think about that? I'm just trying to think of it you know, the guy listening to the show who's who's who's building his ecommerce business that is maybe, maybe, maybe gone and got the 1000 you know, the 1000 little Indiana Jones Lego pieces already? How does he How does he How does he sort of pause maybe pause is the wrong word but how does he go about and build this community?

Maureen Mwangi

Great question. So first of all, what I want to do is now shift your thinking from product to brand and now start thinking about it as brand to product. So, first things first, as a CEO of your company, ask yourself, what brand am I seeking to build? Okay, what is my story? Why am I putting it out there? Who are my seeking to target and reach with this product? And why? What is it that they're going through? What is it that they're aspiring to to achieve in their life? And how will my product meet, meet them where they are? Once you think about this person, you will start identifying where do they hang out? I'm saying I'm thinking about if you're creating like a vegan food. And you know, I'm speaking to somebody who is vegan, wants clean eating, there's so many forums online, that you can find vegan community health and wellness, eating community, Instagram, there's the places where people are using hashtags. Go interacting with them, as well as putting out content that your audience is consuming right now. Again, engaging, begin engaging relationship building, and naturally they come back and follow your page. If you're using Instagram, and you slowly start pulling people to you. In the age right now we have clubhouse or their clubhouse showrooms that could start talking about talk about vegan health and eating, then say, you can follow me on X, Y, and Z and you will see what my brand is all about. And at the same time, when you're building this community, you're also educating them. Yeah. Why? Why this? Why this diet? Why this food? Why your brand? What are the mistakes you people have made? What are the misconceptions in this space. So you're sort of building a relationship, you're driving human connection, you're humanising your brand. So by the time you're putting your product you're putting out to people who already know what you're all about. The minute they fall in love with your products, they begin doing referral strategies, word of mouth sales. So from the get go, you already making money without investing in paid traffic that is often being touted in the online space that have a product run Facebook ads, you become rich, yes, you will become rich. But if you don't know what you're doing, you're just going to be so confused.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah, you'll become poor. Exactly. So, so I'm loving this. So first, stop thinking about the change your thinking from product to brand. And so let's let's dig into that a little bit as well. Because I, I, I wonder how many people know what brand actually is or what brand mean, because in a lot of people's minds, it just means to have a really nice logo, right? Or a nice box or a nice website. But you use certain words, that makes me think in your mind, it's more than that. Things like story and education. So let's what let's define brand a little bit more. So what do you mean, when you're when you're talking about brand, just expand that thinking for me?

Maureen Mwangi

Um, this is what I say. Branding is why people buy you, marketing is how people find you. So when you

Matt Edmundson

Say that again, sorry, brand.

Maureen Mwangi

Branding is why people buy you, marketing is how people find you. So with that simple line, it's why should people spend money on your brand? You see what I did on your brand and not your product. Yeah. So it's what's the higher order purpose of your your brand? What are you trying to make your audience feel? Because at the end of the day, to me a brand is an emotion. It's how do I draw that connection and why should I give you my dollars? Yeah. Because it's so funny. Like, there's certain sense that if my friends have them, they reminded me of something of a best friend who wears the exact same scent my mom wears, and every day I meet her, I'm just like, you remind me of my mom. And because of that, if I'm missing my mum, I'll just go and buy it. Not because I need it. But because it reminds me of something. So what is that emotional connection you can you can create with your product. And how do people associate? How can people connect to your product to a particular occasion? The big brands do it so well. Think about Starbucks. You think of Starbucks when you want a pick me up. You think of Red Bull when you're looking for caffeine. You think of coke when you look for a refreshing drink. So how can your audience identify an occasion or a situation and connect to your product? That's the work that we want to be doing.

Matt Edmundson

And I hear what you're saying. And I like it, I guess. In my head, what I'm thinking here Maureen is, and this is where you're going to correct me, so feel the freedom. But this is where I kind of go, you know what, Starbucks has a whole department geared towards creating that connection, and that emotional connection, there are some very clever people at Starbucks who can help with that side of things. I'm not that clever, right? And I'm only just a little bit emotionally aware. So how do I, how do I go about figuring out what that should be for me, and how to create that sense of connection with a community, if it's just me, without the big books of a branding department.

Maureen Mwangi

You do it with what your product is, is seeking to achieve in the market. So even at a small scale level, like right now, we are working with a client to create an identity around if I have hyperpigmentation, I should think about this product. And how you do that is constantly driving that messaging, constantly pushing those products that support that message. In the ecommerce space, we have so many products, we are always diverted in different directions. So we can't be known for one thing. Right. So what I usually recommend if you're starting, start with a hero set of products, and push them over time. Yeah, being known for that, if it's defined calls be known for your products, creating defined calls and patterns. And over time, when people are looking for a defined called a product, they will think of you and even customers will start using those words and you can start trademarking it. Yeah. The thing is, with a big brands, it sounds big, but they've done it for so long, that it's now second nature. But we as small entrepreneurs don't give up, we don't give it time. If one thing doesn't stick we move to something else, and we know without focus, you just lose direction. You just get confused.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah, no, you do. And it's the shiny object syndrome, isn't it the moving from one thing to another? And I like that, especially because with eCommerce, you're right, you know, a common question I get asked by people is listen, should I start an e commerce business? I've only got a few products. And I'm actually I actually go yes, you should. Because that's the the, in some respects, that's the better way to start. And that's what you're saying is that you have a few hero products. Start with those, build your business around those, and you can introduce the other stuff as you'd get more successful. But if you it's very hard, I think to start set up an ecommerce business that in effect is like a, how can I call it a supermarket do you know what I mean? I think it's very hard now unless you've got a lot of money behind you. It's very hard to set up a website which sells 1000 products, it's much easier to set up a website that's selling three or four or 10 products or something like that. So now I like that a lot. And the other thing that springs to my mind more in listening to you talk is actually this building of the community and this establishing of the brand. I can do that long before I've got a website. I can start Oh, yes. And long before I start investing money in stock, right? Yeah, I can be doing that now while all this other stuff is happening. Proof of concept. Is there a market and so on and so forth? Is that right?

Maureen Mwangi

Yes, absolutely. 1,000%?

Matt Edmundson

That's good. I like it when you're nodding your head.

Maureen Mwangi

I'm so glad you said that because new entrepreneurs get so caught up on I need a website. I need 150 products. I need X, Y and Z all the back end infrastructure that doesn't lead to sales. Yeah. Well, all we should be focusing on is sales and visibility to gain that traction and then the back end will come when at the right time.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah. Yeah, that's very good. That's very good. So this comes down to your brand voice. This is a phrase I hear a lot, isn't it your brand voice? It's the personality behind your brand. We're doing some work with one of the ecommerce sites I'm involved with. And it's funny you say vegan, we we supply vegan health supplements as one of the brands that we have to the market. And we're going through actually, we're going through a huge rebranding at the moment. And we've drafted some very clever people in all asking exactly the same sort of questions. You're asking more and I'm not gonna lie. I feel like I could have saved myself a few quid. But the thing that I find fascinating about all of this is this phrase brand voice is like, what does what's, and this is the stuff, it's actually quite hard to describe what's the what do people feel when they see your brand and product? Its actually, it sounds really easy. But it's not that straightforward to do I found. I don't know, if you found that, you know, how do you how do you determine how people feel? What, how would you go about figuring that out?

Maureen Mwangi

If you're, how do you determine how people feel is usually manifested in different ways. It could be the words you're currently using, and the colours that you're actually using. A combination of colours and words tends to drive the perception of your brand. Yeah. So if you have an audience, you can do basic market research, they'll tell you how they're feeling, they'll tell you your tone. If you're literally just starting a great exercise I usually recommend is creating a Pinterest board with different inspirations of how you would want people to feel when they interact with your brand. Yeah. So if you're, if you're thinking around, I want a fresh feel. So your Pinterest board would probably have a light blue touch of it, the ocean, it probably have water. So when you put that together in like a PowerPoint slide or a Word document, immediately there's a feeling that gets evoked. Yeah. And that will determine your tone, and your voice.

Matt Edmundson

and your palate and

Maureen Mwangi

your colour. But we don't spend time doing this. Right? What happens when we're starting is we go see your competitors, they have this colour, you assume that's what you need to have, and you go and create a lighter shade. And then you have a business, but then you realise that you built a business that is not in alignment with who you truly are, or what you truly want.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah. That's very true. In fact, I remember this time last year, right, I had, I was having a conversation with rich, my friend from Dallas, Texas, there's no word of a lie. You've brought this all back to me. And we were we were doing something I was involved in a project online and Rich, who is is also an expert in marketing and branding, he basically came along to me and said, What are you doing that is just, that's that's you doing the product? that's that that's you're not thinking about anything ahead of time, right? And so we did exactly what you just said, I went to Pinterest, I went on, on Google, we defined who our customer was. So we knew that we were aiming at people in their mid 30s. They were, you know, they were starting to become successful probably just started the family thing, maybe early married. They've just bought their first house. So we understood where they were in life. So I could go to Pinterest. And I could find all the things that intrigued these people in that age range. What kind of fonts were on the signs, do you know what I mean? What kind of colours? What did they dress like? What did they wear? What size did they shop out? And we put together this whole mood board. And very quickly, I realised that everything that we had done was entirely wrong. Because because what was resonating with that target market was actually not what I had put online. And so we we then spent a good three or four weeks radically changing everything quite quickly. And can I tell you when we did the engagement from our community skyrocketed, right? Yeah.

Maureen Mwangi

Yep. And, and and it's such a great example of what I just said, it's a human connection. Like we are speaking to humans, and we need to understand who you're speaking to. Because when you do the engagement, and the connection will happen fast. Yeah, it's not hard, but we choose to make it hard. But it's also because we don't have the information and the resources to know how to do it. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah. No, I appreciate that. But actually, what you've said here more is, is it's very doable. And I think if you're listening to this show, you're just starting out, or you've been around this for a while, and you've never really done this kind of thing. Actually, this is very doable. It took us you know, it took me probably about a day of my time, just to sit down and understand who the people I was aiming at. And then just researching where they shopped online. What kind of houses did they buy? What did they put in their houses? What kind of patterns did they like, what kind of colours did they like? And it just came from looking at Pinterest changing, just looking at the stuff that they liked. And it was it was remarkable. Pinterest and Instagram just put it all together for me. And so it is doable. I think it's more than doable. And I think you're right. I think it's such a sensible thing to do. So okay, so I feel like we could carry on talking about this. But it's kind of like, I'm building my brand. And I'm starting to identify my community and the tribe. And I'm starting to sort of slowly engage with that tribe, to engage with that community. And I'm doing that even before I put an e commerce website out there. I'm posting on forums, I'm answering questions, I'm creating blog posts, I'm creating live streams, or YouTube videos, or some kind of content to put out there to build the community. I get that. So what's, where do we go from there, where I get my product, and then start winning, like trying to say

Maureen Mwangi

Yes, that's a point where you are getting your product, and now you're creating your product product to succeed in the market. So because you've understood who you're selling it to, then you're going to start pricing it according to your target market. Because oftentimes, if you haven't done this work, you end up pricing it based on what you've seen your competitors do. So when you do this, either, you're not going to be profitable, or you're just going to get out of business over a period of time, because you realise you're not sustainable. So once you have the right pricing with the right positioning, then your goal is to sell your product, however you can. So you can do it online, you can do it offline, because if you are talking to moms with kids, you can go to parks, you can go to events, you can go to pop up shops, that you have everything you need to sell your product anywhere you can. And you begin making money, you validate your concept, once you've validated your concept, then start setting up the infrastructure to allow you to grow and scale.

Matt Edmundson

So you talk about validating your concept, which I think is a great phrase. How do I how do I do that? What what are some of the practical steps I could take to validate my my idea of you know, Lego Indiana Jones, how would I how would I do that?

Maureen Mwangi

First, first easy way to validate if the concept works, if it sells. If you hit your launch target sales? Fantastic. The second thing is because you've sold it to human beings, doing a post launch research with them, sending them a basic question by policy them in your community. What do you like about the product? What do you like about the product? What improvements can we make? Then if once you consolidate all those feedback, you make an executive decision and be like, either the product is 100% good enough, or it has some room to get better? If it has room to get better? Make it better? And then bring it bring it back to life with our enhanced factors.

Matt Edmundson

Yes, this is this. I mean, you mentioned we mentioned at the start of the show, you know, you've worked for L'Oreal and Dove and Lays and a few of these other big brands. And you mentioned at the start that you saw a number of mistakes being made by entrepreneurs that, you know, these big brands weren't making, and they take these small concepts to multimillion dollar ideas. Is this what they're doing? Is this where they're starting?

Maureen Mwangi

That's exactly what they're doing. In fact, there's one brand I worked on the phase of building the community and research took them about six years before the concept went to market.

Matt Edmundson

Seriously. Yes. What happens if you don't have six years, though, you know?

Maureen Mwangi

For them, of course, it takes them six years because the risks are higher. Like there's a lot of vetting. For small businesses, my ideal clients take about three to four months. Okay? Yes. So it's, it's really, um, I've simplified those long processes. They take too short to make them shorter for these small entrepreneurs. But it's because for them, there's a lot of bureaucracy. Like there's a lot of vetting, there's a lot of R&D, there's, there's so much that goes into launching a brand for big brand than it takes for a small company.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah. Okay. Very good. So, um, so that's the start-up phase, right? So we're starting out, we've, we understand the difference now between brand and product. We understand the importance of community and having those building those stark raving fans. What do we need to, when we sort of move to the growth phase, or we've got a business that's actually in this sort of growth stage. What do we need to be focusing on there?

Maureen Mwangi

Oh, yeah. So the growth phase is you're in this phase now when you started having consistent sales, in your mind, you're now like, Oh, my God, this is working. So if you if you're feeling that way, the first thing you need to do is now start understanding your numbers. Because the difference between moving from growth to scaling is what you do with the data inside your business. People think scaling is a lot of work. Scaling is just looking at your numbers, we talked about building a business with scientific precision, understanding it and duplicating the efforts that already worked. So this is your stage to start understanding things like what's your gross margin? What's your cost per acquisition? What's your net promoter score? Like, how, how likely are your core customers willing to refer this product to somebody else? It's you're looking at what's your return on money invested? It's understanding every single data in your business. And this is not something that happens.

Matt Edmundson

Really. So it's not something that happens. You mean, it's not something that happens in smaller ecommerce business? We just keep going and going, we don't Yes, get the data?

Maureen Mwangi

Yes, yes, yes, we don't. Because also think about it. Most people who are starting this businesses are creatives. They love to create they love to bring things to life. So looking at numbers doesn't come easy. But it's one of the things that needs to be embraced in this stage. And if you don't know how to do this, get a mentor, get a peer advisor to guide you through this process.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah, that's, that's tough advice to any entrepreneur out there who's listening, because if you're like me, I love the startup. It's the startup phase, it gets me out of bed in the morning is like, you know, every day, I'm thinking, what new business could I start today? Because that's what I enjoy, right? That's the whole thing. And then once it's up and running, I get bored, genuinely, it's like, okay, I've done my bit, I want to go start something else. The good news is, and you know, thank God, I actually have a fantastic team around me that they, they I think we've learned to work well together over over years, because they kind of take that now they'll make it work. And one of the things that I am notoriously bad at doing is monitoring the KPIs, the numbers. So I fully understand what you're saying. And I, I could put my hand up and go, yes. I'm terribly sorry, that's me right there. So what are some of the KPIs? I mean, you mentioned we should look at gross margin. You mentioned, net promoter score, the NPS, just for those of you who may be for those of you who are listening to the show that don't know what that means, just explain what that is.

Maureen Mwangi

Net Promoter Score is the score that really gives you an understanding of how likely is your customer going to refer this product to somebody else? This is important because repeat sales in a product based business are the lifeblood of your company. You can't build a business constantly acquiring and acquiring without getting repeat sales. Acquisition is expensive and depending on what your acquisition strategy is, you, you could either stay in business or get out of business if you don't have good repeat sales. So it's good to know.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah, that's very good. But that's and I think that I first heard of the net promoter score, because it was one of those things that Apple's been championing for years, isn't it? It's something that they're constantly measuring their NPS, net promoter score. And it looks at people who are going to refer you versus what they call detractors, if memory serves, right people that actually are positively out there telling people never to use your brand, which I find quite fascinating. And so and again, you're right, you know that the the understanding that your business will really go to the next level when your customers are referring you and your a lot of repeat business and referral business, I think is critical. Yeah. So double down, understand the numbers, the net promoter score, gross margin. Are there any of the numbers that I should be thinking about?

Maureen Mwangi

Return on ad spend, understanding your average order value, understanding your cost per acquisition, and cost per acquisition is important because you have to make sure that you're, you're getting paid enough to acquire customer, because when people don't understand the AOV, and the cost per acquisition, they end up finding themselves either breaking even when it comes to acquiring a customer, or going at a loss. Yeah. So understanding those numbers are are really, really important.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah, I mean, it's a really interesting point you make here because I was always told there are three possibilities when you with your cost per acquisition. One, you made a profit. Two, you break even or three, like you say, you made a loss. And actually all three of them are quite valid strategies, if if you're prepared for that. So it might sound a bit counterintuitive, but a lot of people Amazon being the classic one, ran at a number of years of making a loss on customer acquisition, didn't they? But now they're, they're huge. And so if you've got the the investment to an effect, loss to buy the customers is it can be an effective strategy. What I see most companies doing when it comes to cost per acquisition, especially with paid media is going for the break even. And so the first sale breaks even with the belief that you can either upsell cross sell, or you can then sell to them again, down the line.

Maureen Mwangi

Yes, but that's, but that's a smart, that's, that's a smart person. That's, that's a smart entrepreneur, a lot of people don't have that knowledge. You know, so a lot of people who had either breaking even, but don't do anything on the back end, because they just think of the sale. But that's why it's good to understand the mech, the the mechanics behind everything we're saying, because there's a reason why they work.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah. And, yeah, and find out what works and go with it. Yeah. Very good. So you mentioned that, that branding is why people buy you marketing is how people find you. What are some of the marketing channels that we need to be thinking about?

Maureen Mwangi

Marketing channels, traditional marketing channels, are categorised either as organic or paid. So organic strategies are outside, either if it's offline strategies you're selling, or referral, or anything that you're not doing any paid activity for. For paid, there's Facebook advertising, Google advertising, YouTube advertising. Think about any advertising that you do to get a customer. Other marketing strategies that you could do our text message marketing, if your business can support that if you have a team to support that marketing channel, but referral strategies and other marketing but all this depends on what resonates with you as a business owner, how much money you have, how big your team is, and what type of brand and business you have.

Matt Edmundson

So I guess one of the things that I've seen a lot of people do, when it comes to marketing channels is they're they're always looking for the silver bullet, do you know what I mean? The the the undiscovered untapped channel that is going to rake it in for them, which is why when clubhouse came out, there's a massive surge, typical clubhouse, do you know what I mean, all these things take off, and people then release a course telling you how to make millions on clubhouse, you know, for $19.95, or whatever it is. Every channel that you have just mentioned is not that silver bullet channel, these are very well established, very obvious marketing channels. So if I go back to the bigger brands, is that what they use? Or are they trying to do this, I'm going to go covert on clubhouses because no one's really using it.

Maureen Mwangi

No big big brands strike, stick to what is tried and tested, what has worked for them. And then they just duplicate and amplify their efforts. For them, but this this is a concept that can sound very confusing. But I want to introduce something that's a strategy that's called how brands grow. The biggest level of growth in your business is going to be distribution. Because if people can't find you, they won't buy you. So if you think about the big brands, they spend a lot of time trying to expand their distribution, meaning trying to be in many retailers in many places, airports, think about it retail stores drugstores, because they know that's how they can grow like the vast majority of the sales come from there. Then they let on marketing just to prime and remind people that they do exist. So for small businesses, if you think about it, it's the flip people think it's the memory awareness that they need to push before the distribution. And and so so to answer your question on on for big brands, they when it comes to marketing, they stick to the tried and tested it's TV is digital period. And each brand has a strategy so for for the company, I was working on the brands that have the largest budget that their their cash cow of the company, they drive 80% of the sales. We'll get TV placement and advertising. The smaller brands will be marketed through digital channels through social media platforms. And rarely will they get funding to be on TV. So it's also very, it's also very customised, customised based on who the audience is, what the budget for the brand is, and what their long term strategy for the brand is, as well.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah. So if I'm translating that for the small, small business, you know, that's, that's recently started out, you know, you've got your brands, you've got your community and you're starting to see some success. You've figured out which strategy you're going with in terms of are you making a profit breaking even or are you losing money on your first sale on your first order? I'm going to bet that 99% of the people listening, they're going to go watch TV is definitely out. I'm not going to. So a lot of people don't focus on digital. Which is fine, I think, what's your advice there for people like which because there's so many channels digitally to people could look at. And you become tempted to split your money every way because one person over here is saying you need to advertise on Pinterest another person saying you need to advertise on Instagram? How do we determine where to put up a payment or advertising dollar?

Maureen Mwangi

It's it's determined on based on your audience and how they consume their content, and how they receive information. So for example, if you're selling, if you're selling to the younger crowd, you probably want to be on platforms like Instagram, because they're always on Instagram. So when you do a sponsored ad, they will always see it. Right? If you're selling, if you're selling to a more mature crowd, you probably will be doing Facebook, Facebook ads you'll be doing. But Facebook ads a standard pretty much everybody's doing Facebook ads. So you could potentially do Google ads because maybe your if you sell into a mature crowd, they're so used to going and Google and finding their products, as opposed to a younger crowd that they go to social media to find out what they need before they go to Google. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson

No, I like that. I mean that I'm what I'm hearing you say is basically figure out where your customers are, figure out where your tribe is, and go to those platforms. That makes that saves a whole lot of heartache right there. It's not the platforms you like it's the platforms your customers like that's the key thing. One of my key learnings I think over the years. So if I if I go back to the start, Maureen, we talked about some of the mistakes that people make. So one of them being people feel like they've got a product, they've got a business. And we talked about the whole idea around community and building a brand. But you said another thing was this idea of growth strategy, you know, this creating a growth strategy and plan you didn't see a lot of businesses doing that. What are some of the things that I should think about in that plan? I mean, I know we've touched on a few in our conversation, maybe what are what are some of the other bits maybe that I'm missing? Or should should add into the fray here?

Maureen Mwangi

Oh, that's a good question. And just to explain that mistake is because we're so into our business, we're deep into the weeds, we often have a year of a year mentality. So this is 2021. So in 2022, we're just going to do what worked in 2021. But we don't sit down and see oh and ask ourselves, where do I want my brand to be in three years in five years, but we don't have a horizon that oftentimes we're working towards. So that what we need to shift is starting to embrace strategic thinking so that we don't lose focus, and also so that we create strategies that will allow us to expand. Like we talked about having a hero, we talked about launching the the hero focus, okay, if you've done this for a number of years, you've had success, it's time for you to start thinking about innovation and innovating for growth. Not innovating, just to innovate. So if you're thinking about innovating for growth, you have to sit down and think about what product can I add, what category or line item can I add into my business that will bring me a different audience that will allow me to grow my audience base, because at the end of the day, the end of the day, you just want to keep growing your audience base. But in the small entrepreneur space, we don't think about that we just innovate and breathe products that would cannibalise what we already have. And a great example is, if you're doing if you've done skincare for a very long time, you've been selling a moisturiser, lotion, cleanser toner for a period of time, it's time for you to think how, how, what else can I add that will complement my skincare line? Could it be like a cosmetic line? A simple foundation? Could it be accessories, because this stem now you're bringing a customer who can buy an accessory, then they discover they love your accessory and move over to your skincare line, as opposed to coming and adding in a mask. So you're literally swapping the toner for the mask. But that's a growth strategy that people don't think about. That's number one. Then the other thing is I'm beginning to think about hiring a team getting support and growing your business because you don't want to get to a point where you're either burnt out and then you shut your business down because it's driving you insane. Or you're not able to scale because you don't have the support you don't have you haven't looked at your numbers or you don't know whether you have disposable income to hire hire team. That work doesn't happen because we're too into the details and the weeds.

Matt Edmundson

Yeah. Very good. Very good. No, I like that I like the different way you're thinking they're more in my mind is going off in 25,000 different directions right now, which is which is a good sign. And listen, I I genuinely feel like we could carry on having this conversation. Which is, which is always a good sign, I feel is always a good sign. Yeah. But I want to be respectful of your time and and yeah, I just brilliant. I love it. Again, lots of notes. And for those of you listen to the show regulars, you know that on Fridays, we have our team meetings and I just go through my notes and go, come on guys, let's let's think about how do we do what Maureen has said. Right? So it's interesting because we're we're probably going to be starting I would imagine over the next few months around five or six businesses, we've ecommerce sites, we've got planned with some new product differences style products coming out, which I'm really excited about. But some of the stuff you said today around branding and community. Let's just revisit that and see what. So thank you so much. Listen, Maureen, how do people reach you? How do they get a hold of you? How can they connect with you?

Maureen Mwangi

You can find me on my Facebook group. It's called Product Entrepreneurs Who Scale so just go on Facebook type product entrepreneurs who scale, the group will pop up, you'll be prompted to answer three questions. Answer them and we'll welcome you with open arms. Or you can find me on Instagram @maureenmwangiofficial. @maureenmwangiofficial.

Matt Edmundson

Official. I like that. Yeah, that mean, does that mean the Maureen Mwangi had gone by the time you've logged onto Instagram?

Maureen Mwangi

No, it's because I had a personal page.

Matt Edmundson

So the official is the business page. I like that. Yes. I might try that. Matt Edmundson official. Yeah sounds very grand. And of course, we will put links to more in in the show notes. You can reach you that way, including links to the Facebook group and to Maureen's Instagram feed. Maureen, thank you so so much, genuinely, really enjoyed that conversation. I'm just really psyched and pleased by the quality the guests we get on the show and the conversations that we have. I feel like I learned more than anybody else, which is always a good sign. So thank you so much for being on the show. Genuinely. I really appreciate it. It's been an absolute treat.

Maureen Mwangi

My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Matt Edmundson

Now you've been brilliant. Thanks Maureen. Wasn't Maureen absolutely fantastic. And like I said, if you if you want access to the show notes, then head on over to the web website, eCommercepodcast.net/62. And you will get access to that now if you are watching the live stream or you're watching the video, you will have seen scrolling along the bottom of the page and little note saying obviously you can access the show notes, the links and the transcripts at eCommercepodcast.net/62 and you can also get access to this week's giveaway and it's kind of like a drumroll sign this week. You can if you've enjoyed what Maureen has said she has got some very cool training on this whole idea of growth that you're going to want to get hold of and she's making that available to you for free my amazing listeners/ viewers. Yes, you can get that. Now some of the stuff that she is going to cover in that the three not so obvious mistakes. I've got to talk the three not so obvious mistakes product based entrepreneurs make. So if that whole thing earlier on about being a product based entrepreneur resonated with you, you're going to want to get hold of this teaching, let me tell you. How to identify the one growth strategy you need to focus on first to increase sales now, plus the sales maximise a spreadsheet, this is probably the single reason why I'm going to sign up the sales Maximizer spreadsheet big brands use to find their next million dollar growth opportunity and how to use it for your own brand. There's a spreadsheet involved, I'm there. Oh dear. No, it sounds fantastic, doesn't it seriously, if you are interested in getting access to that free training from Maureen then do head on over to eCommercepodcast.net/62. There is a little form on there just putting your name and your email address. And we will give you all the information you need to get access to that training. Thanks again to Maureen for doing that. Very, very, very grateful. Now, all that's left for me to say is, I hope you've enjoyed this week's podcast, if you haven't yet done so why don't you subscribe because it costs you nothing. That's right, other than to click a button. And it really helps us get the word out about the show and helps us to continue to do what we do. So we can bring you this weekly free content, which I think is quite cool and quite valuable. And we can bring that to you every single week, week in week out. All you have to do is like comment, subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts or if you're watching this on YouTube or Facebook. Like I say really appreciate it just helps us to continue to do what we do, which I just love. I love these kind of conversations. Brilliant, aren't they absolutely brilliant. So that's it for this week. Make sure you join us again next week as we carry on our conversation with our amazing guests. And next week is no exception. We've got a great conversation coming up. So make sure like I say you're subscribing connected to us so you don't miss what's coming up in the coming weeks. And if you get the opportunity at on Thursday, 7pm here in the UK, which I think is 2pm. Eastern Seaboard time. And you can figure out, you know, if you're not sure, just head on over to our website, there'll be all kinds of converters on there which tell you what time zone we're in, but that's when we do the live recording and you can come and join in the live stream. Put your comments to I guess, and all kinds of good stuff, so why not try that out as well. Alright, that's it from me. Thank you so much for listening. Have a fantastic week. I'll be back again very, very soon. Goodbye for now.

Sadaf Beynon
You've been listening to the e commerce podcast with Matt Edmundson. Join us next time for more interviews, tips and tools for building your business online.