What Is Amazon Doing And What Do Amazon Sellers Need To Know | Jon Tilley

Matt Edmundson: Welcome to the e-Commerce podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson. The E-Commerce podcast is all about helping you deliver e-commerce wow. And to help us do just that today I am chatting with Jon Tilley from Zon Guru. That's right, Jon is back. For those of you who are regular to the show, you'll know this is not Jon's first time on the E-commerce podcast, and we are gonna be talking about what Amazon is doing.

And what do Amazon sellers now need to know? But before we jump into the conversation, let me suggest a few episodes that I think you'll enjoy listening to. If you haven't done so already. Check out the very first conversation that Jon and I had. Uh, is Amazon right for your digital business? Uh, this is back in the day when Jon didn't have kids, uh, and the world was just sort of warming up to Covid.

Uh, and the other episodes, check out, grow your e-commerce business by stealing the seven Secrets from the military with Stuart Leo. Still one of my favorite podcast titles ever. Now you can find these and our entire archive of episodes on, uh, our website for free ecommercepodcast.net is the website. And whilst you're there, you can also sign up for our newsletter.

And each week we will email you the links and the notes from the conversations with our guests. They go direct your inbox. Totally free. Uh, so make sure you sign up for that. There's no nasties with it. Now this episode is brought to you by the e-commerce cohort, uh, which helps you deliver e-commerce wow to your customers.

The E-commerce cohort is basically a monthly mastermind group where there's coaching, there's workshops, there's all kinds of good stuff, all designed to help you grow in your understanding and learning of e-commerce. Yes, it is, and it's there and it works really, really well. Uh, it's pretty lightweight, so it's not overwhelming.

uh, but you get some great stuff out of it. You meet some great people, uh, and you get to work on your e-commerce business. So if that sounds of interest to you, check out ecommercecohort.com. Uh, or if you've got any questions, email me [email protected] and I'll try and answer them. Now, let's get into the conversation with Jon.

Jon is a successful entrepreneur and Amazon thought leader. After 15 years working as an account director and strategist for some of the top global digital agencies, Jon started his Amazon journey back in 2014, launching multiple successful private label brands, and soon after launching Zon Guru, an all in one software tool set for Amazon, uh, Amazon private label.

Yes, check it out. Zon Guru continues to launch tools ahead of the market and use data-driven techniques to help its customers create and run successful private label businesses on Amazon. He has got a lot of data, he's got a lot of insight. He knows a lot of stuff about Amazon. So Jon, welcome back to the E-Commerce podcast.

I was gonna say, welcome back to the e-commerce cohort. No, no, this is the podcast. Uh, it's great to have you, man. How you doing.

Jon Tilley: What's up Matt? Good to see you. Um, and good to hear your voice. Uh, you know, since we last talked, I think there's been quite an evolution in the world. I like your line there, that the world was warming up to covid, uh, back, back when we first.

And, um, yeah. And, uh, and good, good to hear your voice, man. I, you know, firstly a note just from me that, that, uh, you, I, I can hear the, the evolution in, in your, in just your, your voice and the way you, you, you narrate. It's, it's, uh, stepped up a couple of levels as well. Was great before, but Now, it's excellent. So..

Matt Edmundson: No. Pleasure, you smooth talker. It's what happens when you do something over and over again. You either get better at it or you get flippant with it, don't you? Really? It's one of those kind of things. Uh, but speaking of getting better, Zon Guru, you were telling me before we hit the record button that you, you guys, uh, got some funding last year, right?

Jon Tilley: Yeah. We raised VC funding last year. I think it was May, may last year. Uh, uh, I think I, I, I, I got the check and. An hour later, my wife told me she was pregnant with our second

I was like, I was like, oh shit, what's gonna happen? What's, what's the first thing gonna happen today? I dunno,

Matt Edmundson: Well that must have been one hell of a day.

Jon Tilley: It was a day, I think it was May 14th, I think, if I, if I remember correctly. But, uh, Yeah, it's, uh, it's, you know, we, we, we'd been bootstrapped, uh, all, all the way through then, but I think in, in our space specifically, I think, um, you know, we we're competing with, with, uh, with big companies with, with 300 million in funding and, and stuff like that.

So we, we didn't raise that much. But, you know, it was a decision that I think it was necessary in, in, in the marketplace. And, um, you know, getting a little bit more fuel to add to the fire, uh, was, was, was a good thing. So mm-hmm. , um, you know, we, we, we did that and, uh, and, uh, I'm, I'm, you know, you hear horror stories of, of raising, uh, funds with VCs and, and what that does to your business and, and, and just your enjoyment of it.

Right. And, and, uh, . Um, I'm, I'm really happy with our guys. I think, I think they, they've added funds, but also strategic, uh, chops and, and operational chops as well. So, yeah, it's been a, it's been a good journey and, and a, and a pleasant one, which, which, uh, which I'm happy, happy to report.

Matt Edmundson: Right. You've kind of preempted my question really, cuz that's always a big thing, isn't it?

Yeah. I've got this VC funding, but, um, I've lost my, you know, ability to breathe as a result and it's that kind of, but it seems to have worked well for you or is working well for you guys, which is, which is lovely to hear. So what are some of the changes then that have happened for Zon Guru since you've got the the VC funding?

Jon Tilley: Yeah. Actually, one, one note I would say on, on, on VC funding, just, just some, some of my, you know, we, we interviewed a bunch of different, uh, VCs and, and I think, you know, if, if you are, uh, you know, a business owner and you're looking for that, um, you know, think about where you are in your business, but there's a lot of VC funds out there and they have huge funds with.

Many, many, um, you know, uh, uh, you know, companies that, that are part of that. And, and then you just become a number, right? And, and, yeah. You know, you, you, they push you hard. You're either successful or, or, or whatever, but where, whereas what I chose, I actually chose a relatively new fund, um, you know, and, and when it's a relatively new fund, they're on their second fund, they're just about to raise their, their their third, um, you know, there's a lot more care.

And, and, and I mean, I think these guys care generally anyway, and, and they have a passion for, for entrepreneurs, but there's, you know, they also want, they, we have to be successful, right? So, so there's a lot more focus around that and, and good focus. So, uh, you know, if you are evaluating. Um, you know, uh, your VCs, you know, think a lot about the culture and, and where, what's, where are they at in their journey?

Um, cause that's gonna have a big impact on, on you as, as a business owner, right? So, um, yeah, so, so, so we raised, uh, the funds and, and what's happened with Zon guru? I think, um, you know, there's two things, and we could talk about the second in, in the first in, in a little bit, but there, there's been an evolution of, of Amazon, right?

And so, um, part of our of, of of Zon Guru's focus has been an evolution of our product. To cater to some of the new, um, you know, rising, uh, you know, uh, in, uh, targets or, or, or cu or or customers within that, within that, that profile. And, and one of them has been, um, you know, the, the enterprise brands, um, as well as the, um, the, the new merging.

Um, kind of service of, of, of, uh, expert Amazon agencies, right? Operational agencies that run, uh, brands for, for their clients. Um, and so, uh, you know, we, we, we tested that as, as a, as a, as a, uh, kind of ICP ideal customer profile, and we have an, an amazing fit. Um, you know, uh, Zon Guru is not the biggest or the most well-known in the space, but, uh, when you truly speak to experts.

Um, and, and you know, true experts who understand the business and they look at our software. Um, you know, and, and they understand that they have to do things efficiently. They have to raise the quality of their brand managers, and they have to, you know, you know, uh, do it at scale. Um, you know, the light bulb goes off for them when they see Zon Guru and it's, and, and they're like, this is the best product in the market.

So it's really cool. Um, you know, the, the, the, the previous model when we, when we talked or, or you know, was focused on the small private label seller. Yeah. Um, and, and then, you know, we, we did a lot of, uh, you know, inbound marketing, you know, just to like, Hey, you know, here's PPC or, or or something.

Here's a lead man, check us out. And then it's a, a self. Self fulfills, uh, conversion, right? They just get in on their conversion, they do their free trial, uh, and they get to play around with the tools. You know? Now with, with, with, with this latest model, we, we do a lot of more outbound. We have a sales team, um, you know, we have demos.

We sit down for an hour. We, we spend their time with, with the brand manager or the COO or CEO. And when you have that time to sit down with someone and show them, right, they're like, you know, they really get, get the value of what we do. You know, so, uh, it's, it's quite. It's quite pleasing as well, you know, to, to, to sit down with these, with these people and, and see their response to, to our product and, and it's, it's pretty motivating.

So, um, you know, that said, we haven't obviously forgotten, uh, at all about our, our, um, you know, private level smaller SMB businesses. Yeah. Um, they're still, you know, massive part of our, of our audience. Um, . But, um, you know, we, we, we, and we still cater to them and focus them from marketing and in a customer success perspective, but we, we have this new kind of cohort that we, that we are looking at and, and, um, uh, it's a trickle down effect.

So whatever we saw 'em for at the agency enterprise level, you know, all of the, the SMB smaller businesses benefit cause they're, you know, they're doing the same things. It's just potentially a little bit more at scale, at, at, at the other level. So, um, yeah, it's been a, been a really interesting journey. Um, and certainly

kind of a cool benefit of that as well is, is just, um, you know, our, our CS team having more, um, complex conversations, you know, uh, you know, answering more complex questions, more, more, uh, enterprise level questions. So it is, it's kind of, job satisfaction is, is interesting as well, right? Cause they're not just super, you know, you know, um, kind of entry level conversations.

They're, they're more complex. So, uh, yeah, it's good all around. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, it sounds, it sounds like a hell of a journey, really. And, um, I'm stoked for you, man, that it's, um, that it's going well. Mm. And one of the things that you said was obviously some of the, the evolution of Amazon, therefore you've had to change your product.

And you talked about enterprise, you talked about, um, Agencies, the growth of agencies, which is fascinating to me as well. Um, but before we get into those, is there still, um, opportunities for people who are small uh, SMBs, they live, you know, they've got a job. They're wanting to set up a side hustle or something like that, um, to, to sort of get started with Amazon to create a, a business for themselves and hopefully that becomes their full-time income.

Are there still those opportunities or are they, are they sort of all or, but gone now? .

Jon Tilley: Uh, the short answer is yes, the, the, there's still amazing opportunities on Amazon, uh, amazon.com and, and, and more importantly, I think out of, out of the, the pandemic, um, you know, uh, you know, e-commerce is just obviously boomed, so mm-hmm.

Some of those traditional retail markets, uh, Amazon Australia, which is, was very, very retail, Um, and, and, and Amazon launched there. Um, you know, Amazon, uh, you know, uh, UK's been going for great, you know, gangbusters for a while. But, um, you know, some, uh, Amazon Germany has grown. Um, you know, some of the, like, Amazon, Italy, and, and France, like really traditional retail.

Um, heavy, heavy markets. Um, you know, they, they're all, all those brands and, and everything is, and all the customers have moved online right on onto Amazon. And so those markets are already viable right now. Um, and, and, and pretty awesome. Um, it's kind of sad in, in some ways because, you know, when you walk around the US you know, it's sometimes the retail experience is, is really crap, right?

Mm-hmm. , um, you're going to little boutique stores and all that kind of stuff and yeah, and I hope that hasn't happened in, in, in Europe too much, but. . Yeah. You, you know, so, so there's, there's global opportunities for sure. Um, and, and certainly I would say if, if there's an SMB smaller seller looking to launch, um, you know, they can, they, they can look at some of those international markets first and, and if they do well there, then come to the US cuz you know, that kind of traction that you get on some of those markets will help you.

Um, to, to not just come in as a brand new product onto Amazon for, for the algorithm. Right. So, um, that's kind of a, a backdoor way of getting into the US markets. Yeah. Grow your business first on, on some of the other emerging markets. So, um, you know, there's certainly amazing opportunities, uh, especially Amazon, Australia.

That's one that I've looked at quite closely. And, and, um, you know, you can, you can launch some of those big tickets, uh, items that you, that you could launch. It's, it's almost like launch on Amazon back in 2016, right? Yeah. And if you see the growth of what's gonna happen on Amazon Australia, um, and you just stay in stock, you know, in 3, 4, 5 years, you, you, you're getting that like 30 x on your business or whatever, right?

So, um, there's huge opportunities there. And then I would say on, on amazon.com, yes, there's absolutely, uh, um, there's, there's opportunities, but it's finding that niche within a niche. Yeah. Um, you know, it's, it's using data to find those, those products and it's, it's having a much more sophisticated. Uh, launch strategy and, and actually beyond launch, uh, it's, it's about, you know, kind of proper business, uh, cycle management, not going outta stock.

How do you grow your business and stay aligned with the algorithm after launch, right? Because it's mm-hmm. , once you fall out, out of alignment with the, with the, with the algorithm, it's, it's much harder to come back cause they'll just move to the next product and the next product, right? So, um, in a nutshell, I would say you have to be.

Uh, you know, you have to be a much more dialed in, uh, you know, e-commerce entrepreneur, um, understanding all the different strategies. Yeah. Understanding how to use data, have all the, the right processes in place and, and, and, uh, and do well, you know, it's not just like, oh, we'll throw this up and see what happens.

Um, yeah. You know, you probably have to re, you know, have significant capital. , you know, 20 to 50 grand, uh, at, at the low end, right. To, to kind of launch your product. Um, and, and, and those niches are there. You just have to dial them in. So, so we see from our customers, people launching products all the time and, and some amazing results.

Mm-hmm. . Um, and you also see plenty, plenty guys launching and, and completely failing, right? Cause they, they, they. Not, not doing it right or haven't found the right thing. So, uh, they're all there, but it's just about being more dialed in using data. Yeah. Um, and, and the good news is there's a lot more data now available, um, and hopefully, uh, software companies out there that, that, that can use the data to, to kind of paint a visual picture and, and answer the right questions.

Right. So, um, you know, that's, that, that's all good. But, um, yeah. Uh, you know, and, also. Um, understanding that the markets that you might compete in, um, you know for sure there's enterprise brands, there's retail brands that are on there. Um, and, and, uh, you know, if, if, if you choose wrong, you can get into a massive, uh, you know, ppc uh, sponsored ad or on, on Amazon, and, and you can use that very quickly with, with some of the, the, the deep pockets that some of these bigger brands have.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. So there are opportunities. Just that you need a little bit more about you. It's not just a case of throw it on and it'll be fine. Um, you, you've gotta plan and think it through, regardless of what the Instagram ads tell you.

Jon Tilley: A hundred percent. And, and by the way, there's, you know, hundreds of, of aggregators now.

Um, you know, these, these, these companies that are buying, um, Amazon or, or, or buying e-commerce brands, right? And rolling them up and trying to grow them. They all just, you know, they're all, they're all hungry for, for the right business to buy it. So, um, you know, there's a very real. Um, massive opportunity now that if you do find a niche, if you do find the product, if you do great with your business, if you, if you put in place the right processes, you can exit in, you know, literally you can exit in one to two years and, and, and walk out with, with a million, 2 million bucks, whatever it is, right?

And that's, that's an insane. Insane opportunity that's available to literally everyone, right? So you've gotta do it right. But, um, you know, if you can, if sit down today and you're like, Hey, if you work hard on this, do it right. You can exit in, in, in two years for, for 2 million bucks. You know, how good is that right?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. So what, uh, have, have you got any examples of people that have done well starting recently? What sort of niches they find, not that we can copy cause obviously they have 'em. I'm just kind of curious, um, maybe some of the things that have surprised you, perhaps.

Jon Tilley: Um, yeah, I think in the US one, one of the, one of the surprising, uh, growth markets that we've seen recently is around, um, hop water.

Hop water. Um, I don't know if that's big in, in the UK yet, but, um, hop water. That's hop water. So essentially what it is, is, is, you know, in Europe we've seen a, a, a massive growth in the 0% beer market, right? Mm-hmm. and, and some, some crazy cats. Uh, a small private label seller here, um, you know, came into the US was like, okay, well that's growing there, but, um, you know, how can we remove all the carbs?

And, and uh, and basically they came up with a, they started with like a, it's almost like a sparkling tea that had a hoppy taste. Um, and they kinda evolved that and, and, and worked on getting that to taste pretty similar to beer, but it's just sparkling water the taste similar to beer with no carbs, no, no anything. Right?

And that's, that's a hugely growing, uh, you know, the, the, the sparkling water segment has been growing for a while, but that kind of hop water niche has, has just blown up, um, here. Um, and that, that was a, you know, a small brand that started and, and did, did insanely well. Um, so they've done well. Um, you know, there's, there's a, I'm trying to remember the name of the, there's another sparkling water.

Uh, which is a massive marketing, uh, I think it's called, uh, is it called Death Water or that's Sparkling of Death or something like that. But they've done incredibly well, just, just on Amazon. Um, and they started there and, and gone on. So, I mean, and that brand's worth like a hundred million or something, you know, so it's huge, huge.

Um, You know, if you, if you find the niche and, and, uh, um, you know, those are, those are, those are some of the, the, the interesting niches. I would say. Um, you know, if, if you are looking, uh, you know, as, as an individual, you know, trying to find those, um, unsexy niches, unsexy products, you know, some of those medical products that are, you know, that need a little bit of sexing up.

Um, you know, that's, that's still a really interesting niche. We see a lot of, um, cool, um, product evolution in, in that space where it's a, it's still a big demand, but people haven't really jumped onto that and, and, and done a, done a great job. Right. So, yeah. Um, you know, that's pretty interesting I think, uh, um, yeah.

Yeah. So there's, uh, there's plenty out there. Um, and certainly I think. Um, as an e-commerce seller, um, if you can get access to some of the reports, um, on amazon.com in the subcategories, um, and, and understanding what's actually growing, what, what, you know, what are the trends in those, um, you know, that's a future insights into, into potentially what's gonna grow in some of the, the European markets. Right. So, so if you want

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that was, that was gonna be my next question, actually. Cool. Yeah. Can you, I mean, I assume your platform does this, where you can go get the insights of what's selling in the States. And then kind of go, well actually I'm now gonna try this over on Amazon Australia because I can figure out how to get the product to the, to the Aussies and get it distributed there.

So, um, . It's not a guaranteed method by any stretch of imagination, but it, it seems to be a sensible approach, I would've thought.

Jon Tilley: Yes. Uh, and we have a, a report called the Global Niche Analysis Report. Right. So, so we look at a niche on, you can basically pick the markets that you, that you wanna look at, and we, we kind of look at a whole bunch of visualization around data to assess a niche. Um, and so you can see, you know, what is the, the tam, you know, of, of a, of a niche, um, total applicable market size, uh, and, and revenue size of a markets in, in, uh, the US a niche in the, in the US I'm sorry. Um, you can kind of see the market share of the main players, um, you know, what kind revenue they're doing, and then you can compare that to a market in the UK.

Um, you know, in, in the UK and see, hey, has that grown? You know, if it's a 10 million tam in, in the us, uh, you know, is it a 2 million tam in, in the uk? And how much of that market share is owned by the top brands and is there an opportunity? Right? So we do that for, that we can do it for Australia. So, um, it, it is, uh, the ability to kind of look at, hey, what's happening in the US and, and then, uh, you know, look at the other, the other markets.

But what I would say as well is, It's kind of interesting to do the reverse, right, which is to look at. Um, you know, some of the hot, hot, hot, you know, very competitive markets in, in the US and, and seeing the growth of some of those over time. Mm-hmm. like pet category products or, you know, sporting equipment or whatever, and saying like, you know, that to launch a product in that market and, you know, you, uh, what's an example I can give you?

It could be like, um, I dunno, just make it like a, like a padding green, like a golf padding green, right? Mm-hmm. , that, that could be a, um, you know, a product that could do. , uh, on the US it could probably do you like a million in revenue a month, right? And it could cost you a hundred thousand to get into mm-hmm.

Um, whereas in 2016, uh, it, you know, you could, you could get into that market for 50,000, then it was probably doing you a hundred thousand a month. Right? And, and so seeing some of those really competitive evolved markets in the US and then going and looking at something like Amazon Australia and being like, wow, I can, you know, it's gonna, this product's gonna make.

A million bucks a month in the US but it's gonna make me, you know, 20, 30,000 in, in Australia. Um, but understanding that, that, that, you know, in three, four years, what is the size of that market gonna be? It's, it's pretty insane. So there's a little bit of patience there, but, um, you know, it's like, You can, it's basically just repeating what's already been successful.

Yeah. Yeah. Market. So you kind of have that, that, um, you know, uh, hindsight, uh, to, to go into some of these, these, uh, these markets. Right. So, yeah. Um, so it's about looking at emerging trends and potentially looking at bringing that to, to some of the international markets and kind of doing the opposite, which is looking at saturated markets. Yeah. And then saying, Hey, is there an opportunity on this? So you can kind of look from both ends, right?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Really clever. Really clever. Uh, very good. So let's talk about enterprise then. So you mentioned that one of the, um, one of the evolutions that you see with Amazon is enterprise brands.

Just explain what you mean by that.

Jon Tilley: Yeah. So I, you know, I think through the, we knew this was gonna happen anyway, right? E-commerce trends is, is basically, um, you know, big retail brands, um, you know, big. Bigger, um, traditional, um, retail companies would evolve and, and start putting their products onto e-commerce platforms.

And, and that was obviously totally happening before the pandemic, but the pandemic has just accelerated that, right? So, yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. There's, you know, you can, you can pretty much speak to most brands now and they're gonna have an Amazon focused, um, division of their business, right? Mm-hmm. , um, you know, taking their products, pushing it out there.

Um, uh, and, and obviously, you know, all the other e-commerce channels as well, right? So, so omnichannel, um, you know, e-commerce strategies are, are, are important for any, um, traditional retail brand, right? So, um, what I mean by that is, is there's, there's now companies, uh, you know, that that's, that's, um, traditional retail companies that, that, that have big pockets, you know, big brands that, that are pushing them, them out on the e-commerce channels.

Now, you know, . Previously you would have like Amazon resellers, so guys were going to retail stores, you know, wholesale, buy a bunch of stuff, you know, and flip it on on Amazon. So you had these like smaller private labels. Or, you know, we call them, uh, resellers, right? Um, you know, flipping products on, on the e-commerce channels.

Uh, and now those have been taken over by the, the, the, the, the, the primary brand owner. Right. And they're doing it. And that's evolved in conjunction with, you know, what we, we've been like jeez, Amazon, you, you're so far behind Google. And, and understanding that you, you have a platform that you can make so much money off of sponsored ads.

Um, you know, and, and they're used to, they're so far behind the ball, but they've, yeah. It's almost like, you know, during the pandemic, the, the, like we do for Amazon, they're like, oh, we can make money off. So now, like you have like a whole bunch of different paid, sponsored ad, um, opportunities that you can do and, and it's pay to play, right?

So, um, they're that up and I think it's their, , I think it's the, the second biggest revenue channel now is, is, is is the sponsored ad side. So there's many opportunities there. You have to kind of pay to play. It's what goes with the algorithm. So, you know, you, when, if you're in a market and, and, um, you know, you have big brands there with, with deep pockets, uh, it is challenging, right?

So, yeah. Um, you know, so, um, , that's challenging. Um, uh, you know, Amazon is, is favoring brands. Um, the good news is they also like to see that you're bringing in, um, outside traffic, um mm-hmm. . Um, so if you are a smaller player, I think, um, having some creative strategies around bringing, um, traffic from, from other platforms, Shopify, you know, Google, wherever it is, um, and, and driving it to your, your storefront, um, that, that helps as well.

So it's not just. Uh, PPC focussed, but yeah, that, that's, um, that's brands in a nutshell. Um, so there's enterprise brands and, and then of course, uh, in addition to the, the evolution of the specialist, um, agency, operational agency that

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, you mentioned that. And that's something that I've noticed actually. I mean, we've had a few of the guys on the podcast, you know, um, the sort of.

Uh, agencies on, I'm thinking Andrew Morgans, I'm thinking, um, Marknology. There's, there's been quite a few. If you just go to the website and type Amazon, some of the guys have come on, they're all really interesting. Um, Ryan Flannagan, he was on recently as well, and another guy that's sort of, uh, set up his agency and it was interesting Ryan's story.

You know, he's sort of gone from sort of busting out in his, initial business and he, he sort of stumbles into Amazon and he helps a, so a solar guy selling solar or make crazy amounts of money all rapidly and boom. And Amazon Agency is born. They, and they figured it out. Cause obviously Amazon, I think it's one of the things which is changing the most, isn't it Amazon at the moment in terms of they figured out we can make some real money here.

And they, they seemed. And the agencies that are keeping up with all the changes seem to be the ones doing the sort of the, the best out of the whole thing. I imagine actually, from your point of view, it's a bit of a nightmare from a software side of things. All these changes and evolutions trying to play keep up.

Is it not?

Jon Tilley: Uh, not so much I think. I think, um, yeah. I mean there's obviously different agencies at different levels, right. And I think it's about. Um, you know, finding, uh, the right fit for us at the agency level. And, and, you know, we, we talk about ICPs ideal customer profile and for, for us, um, you know, an agency that is managing less than 10 clients.

Hugely isn't a really good fit for us because, you know, they're, they're happy to pay, you know, a hundred bucks a month. Uh, for, for one, you know, operational software and whole team kind of logs in there and they're just, you know, they, they're running that with a thousand Google sheets. Right. And that's how they operate in the Amazon business is it's typically.

Um, beyond 20 clients that we truly start to have a fit. And, and there's a more sophisticated business owner there who has a, you know, has a, has a smaller team that might have some vertical depth, you know, where they have some, some brand managers. They have two or three brand managers, uh, and, and they're looking for.

You know, good software that can help them be more efficient, that can lift the, the quality level of their brand managers and, and can scale. So, um, you know, those are kind of the, the, the, the levers that we've been, um, the, the needs that we've been looking at in depth and, and and solving, right. So, um, that's a, that's a benefit for us.

And, and you know, uh, the good part of that is that they're obviously willing to pay more for software and there's less churn and kind of what we are doing at the software level, right, which is always trying to aim for, um, higher arpu, less, lesser, less churn. ARPU is average revenue per user. Right? So, so, um, you know, that's, that's an interesting space for us.

Um, yeah, and, and there's definitely, uh, you know, there, this, it's a very, for such a big. Uh, industry, uh, this, this Amazon e-commerce, uh, business. Um, you know, it, it's so new in its evolution, right? Mm-hmm. . And so we do have as, as a, as a profile of some of these agencies. A guy who was selling on Amazon in 2014.

He exited, you know, an aggregator bought his business for. You know, a few million. And he was like, well, what am I doing now? Well, I know, I know Amazon, so let me start an agency. And they, you know, they're kind doing that and they're, you know, they're like maybe four or five people and they, they're using all their skills that they've learned on that to, you know, from VAs and all that kinda stuff to run their business.

Right. So that's, that's, uh, that's one, one market. And some of those are, are, know what they're doing. Some don't. Um, you know, uh, there's, there's, there's some of these aggregators. Uh, you know, um, who are kind of like an agency who, they own the brands, but they, they, they're kind of running, running, uh, you know, trying to scale these businesses as, as basically an operational business.

Um, uh, who've got a lot of funding and a lot of them, dunno what the hell they're doing, . Um, and, and, uh, and, and some of them know what they're doing, right? So, Um, you know, they, they're all all interested in, in, um, you know, kind of figuring things out, um, uh, you know, and, and, and connecting with us and, and, and, you know, seeing how they can do things at scale.

Um, and, and on the, just kind of a side note on aggregators, you know, a lot of them are like, Hey, well no, well, we've got all this money. We just want to build all the software ourselves, right? And so it was kind of hard to, to see them using our software, but that, that's evolved because cause of a little bit of this economic crisis that we're going through right now and they get financing, they're, they're, they're realizing like, Hey, we need to focus in certain areas and, and let's get people to know what they're actually doing and, and they're starting to use our software and, and all that kind of stuff.

So, um, you know, there's the aggregators and then, and then kind of my favorite, which kind of, which goes back to some of my background, which is, um, you know, the traditional, and we call it traditional now, but traditional digital agencies, um, you know, um, they all, you know, it's a, it's an additional revenue stream for them now, right?

So they've got retail brands that they've been helping at the, at the digital level, creative advertising, you know, some of the bigger breach of agencies, but they all need an Amazon division now within their business, right? So, um, educating them, getting them up to speed, you know, You know, if they've got a, if they've got a, a traditional retail brand that they are pushing on their own digital website and they're like, Hey, well we launch on.

Amazon you know, who's, who's gonna handle that for us? I mean, you know, the smart agencies are gonna start building the, the internal, uh, Amazon specialist division, uh, and be an agency there, right? So, um, that's, that's really, really new. Um, if, if not, it hasn't even hit yet, but I think that's, well this is, um, the competition for, for those, for those, uh, current specialist agencies.

Exactly.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting point cuz actually one of my questions to you was, as you were talking, I was thinking. Well, there's, there's a lot of, let's say there's a Shopify agency out there, you know, and they do Shopify really well. Is there, is there an opportunity for them to go, actually let's add, let's build this Amazon sort of side to our business where we become a specialist Amazon agency.

And I know there's a lot of agencies that listen to the podcast and, um, a lot of them are gonna be going, is there an opportunity for us here that we should think of about looking at? And if so, how the hell do we start? Right? Because that's, that's always been, it is like, where do you begin? How do you, how do you even think about learning something to even get competent at something to even think about selling that to a customer.

Jon Tilley: Great segue. Matt. Well we have a, a Zon Guru accreditation course for agencies that they can

Matt Edmundson: I should set myself up as an affiliate now. So is that what you are doing? I mean, I'm joking aside an interesting segue. So you've actually looked at this and gone, yes, there's opportunities. Let's, let's help these guys.

Jon Tilley: Exactly. Yeah. So, so I think, I think. , the answer to your first question for the Shopify is yes.

You know, um, again, you've gotta decide as a business, hey, you know, do I, you know, there's an opportunity there, but what is that gonna do to my overall business? Is it gonna take away from my specialization on, on, on Shopify? So you've gotta do it at the right time for your business, and that's obviously, You know, kind of business 1 0 1, but, um, yes, for sure there's opportunity.

Um, and, and the conversation, uh, nowadays is, is more omnichannel, right. You know, Hey. Yes. And, and even the agencies I talk to these days, it's like, you know, a lot of their brands aren't just specialists on, on Amazon. They are definitely omnichannel. Um, they have the other channels. So if you could satisfy that, um, you know, just with your own business, yes.

You know, it's there. , and, and we, we've kind of, we've seen that and, and, and certainly in our conversations we've seen that there's a need, um, you know, if it's not one brand manager, it might be a few of the other brand managers, um, that needs to be skilled up. Right? And, and they have to be better at, at their skills.

So we've just created a, an accreditation course, which is really an operational course about how do you actually run the Amazon business. But, um, it's, uh, you know, it's, it's, um, , uh, you know, it's done at more scale. So some of the questions in there are, are more of like, you know, how do you do this for your client?

What are the important things for your, your, your clients? You know, what, what are the kind of metrics you have to be looking at, et cetera. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's going well. I think in that's in that, in that place. You know, I, I think ideally for me, down the road, it's gonna be about. You know, if I had to land an ideal client, it would be like a publicist or an Omnicom, you know, like these agency aggregators where the switch has gone off there and they're like, okay, we have a group of agencies, digital agencies that, that need to be scaled up.

Mm-hmm. Um, let's get, let's get some software out there and, and, and, um, yeah, let's get a course going. So, You know, if any of those guys are listening to your podcast, you know, hit me up. Cause I'd be happy to, happy to help you guys.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm sure. But I'm thinking like, I, I, you know, I, I know a lot of agencies that specialize or have specialized over the years in, in traditional e-commerce.

I, you know, say a Shopify site or they do the bespoke e-commerce sites, but it's their own site and people have been a little bit reticent to get involved in the Amazon space. Um, it's felt a bit like a vortex in some respects, a bit like a black hole. So you've now got this accreditation course. If I'm an agency and I, you know, I'm, I'm a small agency, maybe five to 10 people, and I'm thinking, should, is this something that I should look at realistically?

What kind of resource do you, would I have to be thinking about? Is it gonna be a a, a person full-time for six months? To get up to speed. I appreciate this is, how long is a piece of string kind of a question, Jon? I'm just thinking from a digital agency's point of view, they're gonna be thinking, well, what, what sort of, what sort of investment for want of a better expression, uh, do I need to make?

What, what sort of time commitment? What sort of people do we need?

Jon Tilley: Yeah, no, it's, it's a good question. And, and, and I would say, um, you know, certainly internally you would have to, you know, there's different areas of an Amazon business, right? And, and, and some of it is, kind of a, the, the SEOing of, of your, your, your, your content for the listing, right?

Mm-hmm. , um, and, and, and managing that piece, which, which I think is a, is, is a, is an important specialist agency role, like, which is listing management. Um, you know, um, uh, you know that, that kind of like SEO piece, how do we get up our listing in front of customers and, and, and optimize that, right? Mm-hmm. . So that's one piece of the business.

Um, there's certainly a, an, an inventory management piece, which is like from your, your client's, um, stock. How do we, how do we get product into Amazon and, and, and stay in stock. And the management of that piece, which, you know, um, some of the agencies take on as well. Yeah. Um, is for sure the, the sponsored, uh, brand, uh, management piece, right.

The PPC piece, which is, you know, agencies just do that as a specialization, which, which is critical, which is like, how do we manage. Um, all of that and, and also the, the profits and, and, and, uh, the, the, the spend that you, you know, what you call ACOS advertising cost of, of sales, right? Which is, um, you know, how do we, how do we manage that spend to maximize profits?

Um, you know, that's a, that's a piece of the business. And then, um, uh, yeah, and then, and then certainly I think there's, there's the advertising piece outside of Amazon and driving traffic to Amazon. So, you know, there's definitely, there's different specialist uh, areas within that, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, and so obviously as an agency you've gotta figure out, Hey, do I wanna do one, one piece or all of that?

Um, and then, and then, um, and then I would probably start with, with, with one, based on the clients that you have, what, what is the needs that they, they need fulfill most on, on Amazon? Um, and then, and then hiring, hiring for that, um, internally. Um, and then, and then there's definitely services that that's, that can also.

you know, you, you, you can have, um, overflow services that, that you can get, get access. For example, with Zon Guru, um, we have an overflow service on the listing optimization side, which is only for, for, uh, enterprise brands or agencies, which is like the challenge of agencies bringing on a client and they're like, great, you know, let's do Amazon business.

We've got a hundred listings to do, and they're like, , but we haven't got staff for that. So we have an overflow service where we have, uh, listing, listing, uh, creation services, um Okay. That we, that, um, that agencies can use as overflow. They use the guys, they, they obviously do the listings and they just make a markup on that and or charge across to, to their clients and, and, um, so there's ways I think, You could probably hire one specialist in area and, and you could definitely outsource some of that legwork, um, to various, um, services around that.

Right. So, um, yeah, it's, uh, um, yeah, it's, it's like anything, I don't think you have to totally, uh, hire up everyone to start. I think there's, there's, there's ways around that, but you definitely have to have a specialist within, within your agency. Right.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, that's really interesting. That's, and so your accreditation course, is that kind of like an overview of those four areas that you talked about or is it focused in on just one of those specific areas?

Jon Tilley: Yeah, we, we, the accreditation course is more around like leveling up the, the, the, um, the brand manager to give 'em a, a good overview of like, Hey, here's all the parts of an Amazon business from, or a services side of the agency and what you need to manage so they, they can speak, you know, from, from a, from a, a skilled and expert level across that business.

Understand what are the things that, that move it, uh, that move the needle. So it's analytics and, and, and understanding the, the Amazon algorithm and everything that goes around that. And then we focus a lot on the operational side of, uh, listing management, uh, business analytics, uh, review automation, you know, kind of like the main key parts of the business.

And, and on the PPC side, it's more about the reporting and, and how to do that. It's not a specialist PPC course, which is, we all probably do that course at some point, but we, we, we don't have that as yet. So it's more the operational side of, you know, the overview of, of.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, but like you say, you can outsource the PPC at the moment and probably not a bad thing to do when you're starting out anyway.

Um, well, Jon, listen, great conversation and, um, I'm, I'm really fascinated with, with where Amazon's going. I'm really intrigued with this idea of agencies. Um, , you know, uh, more agencies starting to bring in Amazon specialists. I think you're right. And I, I think the accreditation course is a bloody clever idea because, uh, I, I can see the growth in that just from what I know about agency really.

And also in some respects from, say, businesses like mine and e-commerce, traditionally e-commerce business, that has done great. We work with an Amazon agency and I'm thinking to myself, well, actually, I. I could get one of our team members on your accreditation course and actually, do we start to bring some of that in house?

I don't know. And I can see a lot of brands starting to think that now, you know, and, and, and bring those kind of things in house. So, um, Jon, my final question for you, right? Uh, this is completely left field, so I just wanna point that out, right. So, uh, this show is sponsored, as you know, by the e-commerce cohort, which is all about using coaching and peer mentoring, uh, to deliver e-commerce.

Well, so I want you to imagine. Jon, right? You're sat in a or stood, uh, in a room, uh, full of cohort members. Um, this could be virtual, I suppose, virtual room, and you've just delivered your keynote speech about what Amazon is doing and, and what Amazon sellers need to know. A whole bunch of stuff you've just talked about and you've gone into it and the Crowd is going wild.

They're like, yeah, Jon, go, dude. Best talk I've ever heard. Uh, and so when it all dies down, you get a minute to thank all of those folks that have had a big impact on your life, whether family, mentors, authors, software, podcasts, whatever it is. Who do you thank and why?

Jon Tilley: I'd like to thank myself. No, I'm just kidding.

Matt Edmundson: I've seen that. I've seen that.

Who was it, was it? Uh, so who was it that did that Anyway, uh, I digress. Sorry. Yeah, carry on.

Jon Tilley: Uh, well, I mean, I, I, I definitely have to thank my, my, my two business partners. Uh, you know, um, Adam Hudson, uh, who's based in Australia, um, who started as long with me, uh, he, you know, he's, he, he focused on another part of the business and, and I ran the software, but we, we kind of created the vision together and he's been a huge impact on, on me, um, as someone who's a serial entrepreneur and just done incredible, uh, you know, work around successful businesses for the last 20 years.

So he's, he, he's obviously hugely influential. Um, yeah, for sure. My, my, my, my operational, uh, CTO partner who's, uh, based in Bulgaria, uh, from Canada originally, Stefan, um, you know, he's, uh, uh, just a, a, a genius when it comes to software. And, and more importantly, uh, you know, that, that, that piece that we look for in, in, in, um, that we need to solve on the software side, which is finding a team that can develop tech but can truly understand.

The, the business vision and the business strategy and objectives, right? And marrying those two, cuz that's how you create scalable tech. And, and, and he's done, uh, an amazing job there. So that's on the business side for sure. Um, and, uh, um, yeah, I think, I think that's, that's who I would, uh, immediately, immediately thank.

Right. And fantastic. Yeah. It's a, yeah, look, I mean it's, it's, it's a wild journey. And, and I, and I think it's a, it's a challenging journey I think, you know, just in our space, but. , you know, the good thing is, is that, um, there's a, there's a, there's a huge evolution that's happening with, with Amazon and um, certainly there's a lot more data and, and, uh, yeah, and interesting questions to, to, to answer with, with data that, that Amazon is just not doing a good job of.

So there's always gonna be need for software and it's about how we can, we can deliver on that. So, yeah. Exciting times ahead, for sure.

Matt Edmundson: Fantastic. Fantastic. Jon, uh, how do people reach you? How do they connect with you if they wanna find out more about Zon Guru, the accreditation course. Or just reach out and say, how's it, uh, what's the best way to do that?

Jon Tilley: Yeah, I think go to zonguru.com and, and um, you know, we, we have a, a chat support there and, and a team eager to answer a question. So certainly that's, that's a place. LinkedIn, uh, I'm pretty active on, on LinkedIn, so you can, you can grab me there and, um, you know, I, I dunno if, uh, in, in the show notes, I could give you a couple of links to, um, you know, some of those.

Uh, you know, ways of, of, of agencies connecting with us. Um, you know, and they can connect with, with us directly, uh, or even some of those, um, reports that I talked to, talked of, we have some, some of those free reports that we can give you where you can kind of look at a sub-category and understand the kind of data we look at.

So, happy to give you links if, if you need to. Otherwise, um, zonguru.com or, or my LinkedIn profile, uh, they can get me there.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, fantastic. No, that'd be great. And what, whatever links you give us, we will of course put in the show notes now, Jon, uh, big thanks man. Thanks so much for joining us here on the podcast.

Been a, as always, been a thoroughly, uh, enjoyable and informative conversation. You're a legend, man. Appreciate you being on.

Jon Tilley: Thank you so much, Matt. That was awesome. And, and as always, you know, you, you, you, you stay present and you know what questions to ask and, and it makes it really enjoyable. So I appreciate it and, and, uh, great job. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, bless you. I always like it when people big up the podcast host. Always is good for my ego. Uh, we'll of course link to, uh, Jon's info in the show notes, which you can get for free along with the transcript at ecommercepodcast.net. Or if you're signed up to the newsletter, it will be, uh, winging its way direct to your inbox, uh, just automagically.

So, and if you're not signed up to the newsletter, of course, sign up to the newsletter. What's wrong with you? Uh, so again, huge thanks to Jon for joining me today. Really, really great conversation and a big shout out to today's show sponsor the e-commerce cohort. Do head over to ecommercecohort.com for more information about this type of, this new type of e-commerce community that you can join. Be sure to follow the e-commerce podcast wherever you get your podcasts from because we've got some great conversations lined up.

And I don't want you to miss any of them. And in case no one has told you yet today, you are awesome. And that's just a burden you've got to bear. Jon has to bear it. I have to bear it. You've got to bear it too. Just awesome. The E-Commerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media. You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app.

The team, the amazing, wonderful team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Josh Catchpole, Estella Robin and Tim Johnson. Our Theme song was written by Josh Edmundson and My Good Self. And as I mentioned, if you'd like to read the transcript and show notes, head over to the website, ecommercepodcast.net or sign up to the newsletter.

You know how to do it. It's on that website. Uh, that's it from me. That's it from Jon. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world, stay safe. I'll see you next time. Bye for now.