Winning Over Gen Z: The Insider’s Guide to Dominating TikTok and Snapchat | Claire Daniels

Claire: [00:00:00] Hopefully, marketing is, is always going to exist. People are going to need to sell, promote products to, to different generations, but I do also think they have it tough, but that's, that's more kind of their place in the world right now and how they view the world, um, and stuff like that is, is very different and you see it in the workplace as well.

You know, it, it affects me not just in the, I've got to understand it from a marketing strategy point of view, but I have Gen Zs who work for me and you know, the way They see things and their expectations of an employer is extremely different to a millennial or a Gen Y or anyone beyond that. So, you know, we all have to actually take some time to get to know them and to understand that we can't treat everyone the same.

We have to understand what those differences are, why they exist and work with them.

Matt: Welcome to the e commerce podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson. This show is [00:01:00] all about helping you deliver e commerce wow. And to do that, we are talking to the wonderful Claire Daniels today about how to market to the new Gen Z. Oh yes, we're going to get into all of that. With Claire, who is actually, uh, Claire, it's fair to say you, this is the second podcast you and I've recorded together.

So it's like, it's like we're, we're kind of old hats at this now, right?

Claire: Yeah, old friends.

Matt: So, yeah, it's great to have you on the show. It's great to have you on the e commerce podcast, uh, where we get to talk about all things e commerce. Last time we, we were on the Push podcast talking about all things leadership and life. Now we're talking about e commerce, getting into your, your, uh, your toolbox as it were.

But before we do that, let me, ladies and gentlemen, tell you a little bit about eCommerce Cohort. Uh, eCommerce Cohort is the sponsor of today's show. There's been a bit of an overhaul to eCommerce Cohort recently, so if you've not checked it out, do check it out, eCommerceCohort. com, [00:02:00] a monthly membership group for all you fine eCommerce folks.

Do come and join us in that. It is growing. It is expanding. It is doing some great stuff and prices, I think, start now from 14. 99 a month, which is cheap as chips. Uh, as we like to say here in the UK, uh, or I think it's like 18 bucks, uh, if you're outside of the UK. Uh, but do come along, do come join us, check it out, ecommercecohort.

com. Now Claire, let me, uh, read your bio here. It says that you, I love, I love the bio, uh, Claire Daniels is the rock star. CEO, uh, and I'm expecting some music later, uh, Rockstar CEO of Trio Media, a Leeds based digital marketing powerhouse that's all about shaking up the status quo for brands on the rise with a toolkit that includes everything from SEO wizardry to social media.

Sorcery. Trio is your go to for marketing magic. It's just awesome. Uh, before taking the reins at Trio in 2018, Claire was a strategic marketing guru [00:03:00] leading tech teams like a true boss. Oh yes. Claire, great to have you on this podcast. Thank you for joining me. How are we doing?

Claire: Thanks, Matt. I'm doing great, thank you. And I should probably add, I didn't write that bio, so I appreciate what what they gave, what we gave you, because yeah, I appreciate it.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it used to be, and to be fair, we still do this on occasions, people would give us bios and we'd just read them out, um, it depends how busy we are. But Sadaf has taken recently to rewriting guest bios, um, to be a little bit more fun and frivolous. Uh, and I'm, I'm quite enjoying reading them and I don't read the bios until we actually do the podcast recording.

So it was the first time I'd seen it and I just, I just smile every time. It's a wonderful thing. It's a wonderful thing. So, uh, we are talking about marketing to Gen Z, or Gen Z, I suppose if you're outside of the UK, right? [00:04:00] And, um, let's get into that. Let's jump into it. So how did you get involved in, um, marketing to this particular niche clientele?

Claire: Well, for us, ultimately, as a marketing agency, we're working with businesses in a whole range of industries. We're using data to produce strategies and look at what's going to work for our clients. Um, and also using platforms that become favoured by some audiences over others. Um, and being in the digital marketing space, obviously TikTok has massively over the past two to three years.

Taking a huge chunk of the social media pie, um, and predominantly that is made up from people within the Gen Z demographic, not, not solely, you know, and we really encourage people with target audiences outside of that age bracket, that TikTok is definitely still for them as a marketing platform. But it led us to really look at [00:05:00] what is it that is different about Gen Z from previous generations and what makes them tick with marketing because there are quite a lot of changes now.

You know, there really has been a shift in... Consumer expectations, the way technology and social media and all of that is used. So, we just kind of doubled down on that, both with helping our clients, but also trying to help and educate other people by using data platforms that we have available to us to really look at the insights and help produce strategies that are really nailed on for what it is that is important to Gen Z.

Matt: Fantastic. Well, let's, uh, before we jump into it, let's define, um, uh, mainly if my wife is listening, let's define what Gen Z means, because I think we're all getting confused Gen, uh, the Gen Z, Millennials. Um, I, I know I'm a Gen X. I, that's as much as I can show my age now. Um, but so how do we define what Gen Z is?

Claire: so [00:06:00] Gen Z came after Millennials, so I, I don't like that I'm a Millennial, but apparently I am one, um, but Gen Z is typically anyone born between like the late 1990s up to early 2010s, so aged between around 11 to 26 kind of push, you know, and anyone younger than 30, um, and certainly when we're looking at anyone that can be influenced or make purchasing decisions, that kind of 16 to 30 bracket.

Matt: Yeah.

Claire: And some of the characteristics of that generation, you know, they're known for growing up with technology. Whereas, you know, I think for myself, technology happened as we were growing up, but it wasn't. Part of us in the same way it is now for the younger generation. Um, and so they are extremely fluent with digital media, with technology, um, and also the [00:07:00] access to information they have.

So they take on much more global perspectives, um, and these certain issues that they are more concerned about, like social justice and diversity. And a lot of this feeds off that access to. Non stop communication, social media that brings awareness to certain topics.

Matt: very good. And so, it is fascinating actually, this idea of growing up. in an environment, not just with technology, but with the technology that is currently available. So social media is probably the big one, isn't it? Really. Um, I remember when I was at university getting my first ever email address, right?

This is, uh, so I'm, I did not grow up with any form of tech whatsoever. I was like, how old was I? Maybe 22, 23 before I got my first mobile phone. So it was. It was all, and when I say mobile phone, I mean a [00:08:00] mobile brick. Uh, they weren't, they weren't what they are now. And so it totally passed me by. Now my kids, uh, who would be Gen Z, um, have grown up in a very different environment.

They were using iPads from. It was almost like they came out of the womb knowing how to swipe left, swipe right, and do you know what I mean, do all that sort of stuff. And they've grown up in a very different environment, so they use technology, I think, in a very different way. Um, I try very hard to keep up, Claire, I'm not going to lie, but my kid's just way out there.

I have no idea. No idea. And so I, I, I, I find it a really interesting group of people because they have been totally influenced by this whole thing, um, interestingly, just as a total aside, this is just me having a bit of a moan. Uh, I told my son the other day, who's trying to do a few things, I'm like, why don't you just call that person?

And, um, and, and [00:09:00] have a conversation with them and, and I kind of, I talk, I talk to him later. I think he's trying to organise accommodation for university. I'm like, just call them up and see what they say. Here's the number. I even gave him the phone number to call, uh, later. Did you call them? No. I emailed them.

Why didn't you call them? Go away. Have you called? No. I text them. It's like, do you know what I mean? It's, it's funny, isn't it? Because, uh, I grew up in a world when a telephone was tethered to a wall and you had a really long cord. Uh, you know, and, and try and hide, you'd sit in the downstairs toilet trying to hide the

Claire: Dial thing as well where you can do it. Like, do, like,

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rotary Dice. There's going to be people listening to this show going, Matt, I'm totally with you. And then there's going to be people listening to this show going, Rotary Dice, what the heck are you talking about? Why would you have a phone put on a wall? I don't get

it.

Claire: know. Honestly, it's, it amazes me how much has changed in such a short period of time. And I think, you know, especially for the Gen Z audience, add [00:10:00] to that their experience through COVID. You know, like what you just said about your son not ringing someone. That, like, human interaction is not even first nature to them.

You know, digital interaction is, is what is their native language that they're almost using. And then human, face to face, anything a bit more personal is difficult. And, you know, I think, not that I'm going to get into this heavily, but it's then linked with the rise in, you know, mental health issues, you know, so much more prevalent in that audience.

But all of this, I believe, is, you know, intrinsically linked with the way that technology has just become so much part of their life that it's like their first. Um, and interestingly. When I was in the car with some of my colleagues one day, we were driving to an event where I was going to be giving this presentation and we were talking all about Gen Zs and then we just ended up being like, oh, they screwed, you [00:11:00] know, and then it's like, oh, but here we are, how to market to them. But I think ultimately these, we've got to understand them and what makes them

Matt: yeah, yeah,

Claire: Hopefully, marketing is, is always going to exist. People are going to need to sell, promote products to, to different generations, but I do also think they have it tough, but that's, that's more kind of their place in the world right now and how they view the world, um, and stuff like that is, is very different and you see it in the workplace as well.

You know, it, it affects me not just in the, I've got to understand it from a marketing strategy point of view, but I have Gen Zs who work for me and you know, the way They see things and their expectations of an employer is extremely different to a millennial or a Gen Y or anyone beyond that. So, you know, we all have to actually take some time to get to know them and to understand that we can't treat everyone the same.

We have to understand what those differences are, why they exist and work with them.[00:12:00]

Matt: Yeah, that's a very valid point, because I think it's certainly very easy for people of a certain age, mainly myself, to, um, to just complain, because they are, it is a very different generation, certainly to the Gen X generation that I'm, uh, part of, um, and some of the things that we complain about are both, are, are valid, and some of them are not valid, but the bottom line is, you know, they have, Gen Z, a bit like millennials grew up in a very different way to the way I grew up, And you, you have to get your head around the fact that, that people think differently and work differently.

Like you're saying, we've got to get into that understanding if we're going to effectively market to them. So that's a really valid point. So some of the things that you said that earmark this generation, they've got a global perspective, social justice, um, diversity, obviously social media has impacted them on a massive way and all of those things.

They've had their experience through COVID, human interaction is not their first interaction, digital is, and obviously they've got, there's a [00:13:00] big, the mental health is a bigger issue in the Gen Z than it is, say, in previous generations. Um, there's a lot going on there. Um, and so where do you start with all of that?

Claire: Well... It's about, any marketing is always about understanding the customer first, you know, what is going to be important to these people. I mean, an exercise that we always do with new clients is our kind of own exercise we've created called Top 20 Reasons. And we go through 5 reasons people buy from you, 5 reasons they don't, 5 reasons people come back, and 5 reasons they don't return.

Um, so it, it takes away, you know, we never just say to someone, oh well what are your USPs, or what is it that you offer? It's like, what are the actual reasons that are important to people that make them buy from you? So that you really get under the skin of the target audience.

Matt: I

Claire: would do, you know, doing [00:14:00] something like that, so really getting to know who are these people, what do they value, what's important to them, and the reason why we do that is so that through our marketing, we can address any of the objections, you know, the reasons people don't buy may not be, in your mind, a valid reason for them not to buy, but it is the reason they don't buy, and actually that could have been handled through more effective marketing, um, or equally the reasons why people do buy from you.

Making sure that that message is is really front and center. So you know, if it's a brand that actually is very socially conscious, a lot of people buy into that. Say for example, Patagonia. You know, like, is it because they're creating ground, breaking clothes with some patterned fleeces, you know, and stuff like that that are popular?

Well, not really, but actually their morals, ethics, values as a business is what makes people want to buy into that.

Matt: Yeah.

Claire: It's kind of understanding what is [00:15:00] meaningful to people and then leaning to that and talk about it. So that's... Really important. And so you may do it, you may address these challenges through your content, through imagery, you know, for example, we spoke about one of the points there is diversity.

So actually, diversity is important. And also, I don't know the stats on this, but I would imagine that Openly out people within the LGBTQIA+ and anyone I may have excluded there, community. I imagine there's a lot more of that in the Gen Z demographic. So, you know, if that is your target audience, you probably need to be a lot more open to embracing that.

Demonstrating that through your marketing and that you're on board and you're inclusive and you know, in any type of diversity, whether it [00:16:00] is gender or race or beliefs, anything else, then a brand, if they're selling Stairlifts. Um, you know, they probably don't need to show that quite, quite so much.

Um, so it's, it's understanding that and then, and then showing it. I mean, besides those points that we've just discussed, I actually have some data that we could dive into if you want. So, um, we use a platform called, uh, GWI, Global Web Index. Um, and it's got over 40, 000 different data points. You can put in different age groups, et cetera, and find out all sorts about them.

So we've pulled off some stats about Gen Zs. Um, so I've got, how do they interact with brands? What are their favorite social media platforms? How do Gen Zs discover new brands and stuff like that we dive into? And then also what you can do with that information. So should I

Matt: Go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Loving this. I'm making [00:17:00] lots of

notes, Claire.

Claire: Yeah, good. People are going to be learning today. Um, so, in terms of the top five things that are voted for, there's a really long list, but in how Gen Z's interact with brands. Um, the number one thing is I use discount codes or coupons. Then we've got, I research a product online before buying it.

I spend the time looking for the best deals. I am loyal to the brands I like. I tell my friends and family about new products. So we've got a few themes there. Theme around price and being price conscious. And theme around actually being quite bought into something, so much so that you're loyal and you would recommend it to others.

And then also making sure that you do your research before making a decision, which is quite interesting. Then, what are Gen Z's favourite social media platforms? So, TikTok is the top one, so that's 48. 8% of Gen Z's said [00:18:00] TikTok was their favourite platform,

Matt: Oh, wow.

Claire: out of 19 million people, um, surveyed.

Um, then Instagram, then Snapchat, and then WhatsApp. And this data, for example, has been... It's hugely important for us because, like, we're working on a campaign at the moment with a tech company who have a platform that is for teachers. But obviously the teacher age group is quite wide and we're working with them on a social media campaign, both organic and paid.

And we used this platform to go, okay, teachers, what's their favourite social media platform? And we, Facebook then went to number one because this is taking any age group

Matt: Okay.

Claire: Then what we did was broke down teachers by age groups, so we found that actually we've got a really strong category of teachers, you know, that are 30 or less, you know, so they're just coming out of university, they're just starting out in teaching.

[00:19:00] And they all voted TikTok as the most popular platform. So it helps us when we understand those audiences, you know, in the smaller segments to go, well, we need a strategy for TikTok for these type of people, but then we also need a strategy for Facebook and those strategies then going to be really different.

Matt: Yeah.

Claire: Um, so knowing what their favorite platform is, you can then start to think about, okay, so where am I going to go spend time promoting what it is that we have with that audience? Um, also as well, like Snapchat being on there is an interesting one. Like we were working with a university and they were wanting to get in front of prospective students and we then went forward with a idea around doing Snapchat ads as well and getting Snapchat content in front of that graphic, whereas, You know, without the data really leading you in the right direction, you may just kind of always end up with a, okay, if we're doing social, it's going to be on Meta, we'll cover [00:20:00] Facebook, Instagram

Matt: Yeah.

Claire: no, but actually it's about really being able to be specific about what platforms. Those audiences are using, um, and even so we've had people come in and do work experience here all kind of between the ages of 18 to 21 and they're like, oh, well, I use WhatsApp. I use WhatsApp to talk to my family because my family's all old and that's what they use. They don't use WhatsApp to talk to each other. They use Snapchat to talk to each other or

Matt: Yeah.

Claire: Instagram to talk to each other.

Matt: Mm hmm.

Claire: Um, you know, I was away somewhere recently with a colleague and, um, you know, she, we were talking to some people and someone said, oh, can I have your Instagram? And they exchanged Instagrams.

I said, you do know that's the equivalent of someone asking for your number these days. Um, you know, which she had no idea because just different. Um, but that probably goes. Back to that point about your son as well, you know, what, what good is having someone's number because they don't want to [00:21:00] talk on the phone, you know, they get your Instagram and they DM you.

Matt: yeah.

Claire: So,

Matt: Yeah, they do. It's really interesting and my daughter, and the reason I'm laughing is because my daughter has WhatsApp, the only channels, the only group she's in are the family channels because we're all old, obviously. Uh, and she, she was texting her mate the other day. And she showed me the text and I'm like, what text thing is this?

And she went, oh, it's Snapchat. I was like, What would it not be? Uh, so. It's totally right.

Claire: yeah, it really, yeah,

Matt: Yeah. Um, this is what I mean, I, I, if you're like me, you kind of think, man, I've, I just got my head around Instagram and yet there's all this, I've now got to figure out all these other things.

Claire: well, a lot of people are going, ah, I've finally come into terms with having to use TikTok and then Threads arrived and then, Twitter changed to X and then there's also, you know, there's Be Real and all this type stuff, but TikTok for us is definitely the kind of lead platform for this generation because it does have the most people

Matt: [00:22:00] It does, it's massive. It's interesting you talk about that because when Threads came out I was like, well, okay, I'll go get my Threads account

because why would you not, right? And I've used it twice and I've never used it since. And so you know that there's going to be these things which sort of come and go.

A bit like, what was the other one that came and went? Clubhouse, you know, with the, uh, that was another famous one, wasn't it? Um, Instagram seems to have stuck around. Obviously Meta is Instagram, WhatsApp and Facebook. Um. TikTok seems to have come on the scene and sort of hung around. My one reservation about TikTok at the moment is I'm not sure how America is going to respond to TikTok in the future.

Um, because obviously as things currently stand is it's owned by China pretty much, isn't it? TikTok. Um, and so. I'm just not sure how long it will be, because I know that there's been rumours, but whether it actually happens or not, I don't know about whether certain states, whether the [00:23:00] whole of the states is just going to ban TikTok, and then that's just going to kill the platform.

I don't know. Um, but as things currently stand, obviously it's a super popular platform, right?

Claire: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, we shouldn't let any of that stop us from like, right now, that's where people are. And, you know, I think there has been rumours about that for a long time, and nothing's happened. And I think it has such a strong foothold that actually, I would be surprised if something did change because of the amount of time people spend on the platform.

I think as well, the way TikTok differs, I mean, they themselves, I did refer to them as Social media platform earlier, but they would say, we're not a social media platform. We are a entertainment platform. That's how they position themselves. You know, you should come here to be entertained, spend a lot of time.

It's, it's not the first place you would go if you want to talk to someone. And so it differs with that. And, you know, I don't know whether there'll be any kind of censorship that will start [00:24:00] coming around, but yeah, I think for now it's where people are at. Let's, let's

Matt: Embrace it. Yeah. Join in. What do you think? Um, what do you, why do you think? TikTok has resonated then with Gen Z specifically, um, especially if you've got a lot of Gen Zs, I suppose you've got a lot of Western Gen Zs who are very globally aware and globally conscious. Um, and you have got, uh, obviously nations like China, which isn't love it or hate it, right?

There's, there's, there's pros and cons to, to, to China as a nation and what they're doing. But you've got Gen Z's, like my daughter, my kids are very aware of China, very aware of human rights records and all this sort of stuff. So on one hand they know that this is a Chinese platform, but on the other hand they've sort of flocked to it.

So I'm kind of curious why that just seems like an interesting juxtaposition to me, uh, to

Claire: Everyone knows [00:25:00] iPhones are made in China, but everyone wants an iPhone. Um, you know, so I think. You accept it if actually, well, you know, that's what I want, it's where I want to be. So, it's obviously a necessary evil that you accept, isn't it? Um, a really interesting question about why I think... Gen Z's are drawn to it.

And it made me think, so I remember, I mean, honestly, it must have been 14, 15 years ago, going to a conference, um, about digital marketing and someone saying, if the internet was recreated, kind of today and kind of future from that time, It would be video first, and I couldn't get my head around it, I couldn't picture, well what do you mean the internet is just video, you know, because just thinking of like flat, static web pages, how could the whole web be video, but that's the kind of rationale of, this [00:26:00] is the direction that it would go, and then here we are, we have TikTok.

You can't not play it, like, you open it and video is playing, like, whether you like it or not, you know, it is just intrinsically video. As you said about your children, it's like they come out of the womb knowing about swiping. Everything about the way that platform has been built feeds into the way this generation we've created.

Now expect to react online with a device, you know, short attention span, short bits of content, swipable content, you know, it's very clever in being able to very quickly learn what you're interested in, show you more of that to keep you there, you know, I don't know if you could tell by the way I'm talking about it, but I am very much hooked on TikTok as well, like

Matt: ha, ha,

Claire: If I go on TikTok before I go to bed, that's [00:27:00] it, I've lost an hour of my life, um, because it keeps you on there,

Matt: sucks you in, doesn't it?

Claire: yeah, I don't think it's necessarily that there's even a conscious decision about this is the platform for me, you know, it's just you go on and An hour later you're still there and then all of a sudden you're going on the next day, the next day, the next day.

Because TikTok, before being TikTok, was an app called Musical. ly. It was very much just about the, um, like lip syncing and dance moves and stuff like that. is only about you can access the music and do these specific things and it didn't take off in the same way so you know when TikTok first started getting big in the past couple of years everyone's going well it's just a platform for lip syncing and dancing it's like well actually it's not because it's been around as that for about 10 years

Matt: Mm,

Claire: That was quite niche, [00:28:00] whereas, yeah, that's its heritage and a lot of people are still doing that, but the potential of what it had and how much more it could do is what has made it grow because of the algorithm and, you know, the way it links, and obviously we'll get into some of this as well, but TikTok Shop, all of this stuff being able to be on there, like you can See a very short video of someone influencing you, you can click and you can check out and buy it without ever leaving TikTok, you know, like in the office every week.

It's like, Oh, here's my latest TikTok purchase. I was influenced and all the Gen Z's buying things off TikTok. So from that perspective, this is why it's an amazing platform for brands. Because the, you know, it's almost like you don't know it's happening to you, uh, you know, and you're just being marketed to one of the things, the, when I first put this presentation together, it was for a specific event and the previous.

Presentation that I had been doing at the same series of events before I did the [00:29:00] Gen Z Z piece was around conversion rate optimization. And one of the platforms I spoke about was Amazon of, you know, look at how now, how easy it is to check out and, you know, do you think they were struggling to make money before they brought in the one click checkout?

You know, they weren't, they were making. Multi billions, billions, whatever it is, anyway, but they still, they brought in the one click checkout and they made even more money because it took away thinking time.

Matt: hmm. Mm hmm.

Claire: know, I can't even consider, is this a good idea because I've already bought it, you know, so.

It's the same thing, of this, everything being one click away, like so easy, so quick, that it's just there, and that's the opportunity for marketers, advertisers, is to be able to put stuff on platforms like this, that generation, and they just buy it, you know, without them really having to consider much else.

Matt: Really powerful. [00:30:00] Really powerful stuff. Well, let's dig into it then. Let's, um, I'm just going to pull a random thing on my desk. For some reason I have a torch. Um, not very, uh, Gen Z, to be fair, because they're all torches on the phones now. Uh, but how would I, how would I... Think about, uh, marketing then on TikTok.

Say something like, or pick any product you'd like. This is a bit random, but, um, what, what are some of the things that I need to think about when approaching this platform?

Claire: So... The content is going to be the main thing, you know, you can't go, oh, if I go on TikTok then just naturally, because the audience is there, they're going to buy from me, because if you don't create the type of content that they resonate with, that they want to see, it will fall flat, so... A term people UGC, which stands for user generated content.

This is really, really big [00:31:00] on TikTok, and certainly for anyone that spends any time on TikTok, they will have noticed, because I definitely have, a convergence towards pretty much all ads are UGC. So it's... Someone, another user on TikTok, it doesn't have to be an influencer, you know, it can just be someone who has created their own TikTok video about your product and you take their video and you use that as an ad.

That is a really powerful way to get people to buy because you are not creating some polished sales video trying to tell people, um, you know, what to do or whatever else, it's just, it creates demand because it's like this other person, They look like me, they sound like me, whatever it is, and they're telling me I should have this, so, you know, I want it as well.

And you will just see tons of ads like that, but the good thing is, because actually when I was telling this to someone else, they were like, well, no, I [00:32:00] don't, I don't see any ads, and I'm like, this is one of the other benefits of TikTok. The ad content is so native to the platform, you... I really don't know that it's an ad, so especially when you are looking at that user generated content, or even if you're not doing UGC, anything super authentic, not polished, very real, anything like that is going to work really well, so I would rather it.

If someone had a product to sell, just say to them, you need to just get in front of the camera yourself and just talk through why you created it, and why it's good, and show it, or package it, all these type of things, instead of, oh, we're going to create this, we've got this idea, and we're going to create this, you know, fancy little mini advert, whatever, it's just, TikTok isn't the place for that, TikTok, it will only work if it looks native, like I say, the native stuff is people creating their own content.

Content on there. So if [00:33:00] you've got a product to sell, that's definitely going to be the, you'll get the best success on TikTok because you can link it up with TikTok shop. You don't have to, but it is a benefit to do that. So you link it up with TikTok shop. People can just buy on TikTok, like I say, they don't even have to leave the platform.

Any details they signed up with, they're going to auto populate. If you've got Apple Pay, anything like that, that's all going to integrate as well. So you can check out really, really easily. Um, but even if you don't have a product to sell, you know, you can link off. I mentioned about university, link off to a page to sign up or find out, download the prospectus or whatever it may be.

So you can still do anything like that. Um, with ads as well. Um, and obviously a lot of what I've said there is around ads and people probably go, oh, it's maybe not the first thing they thought about on TikTok. The thing is just about the content creation and going viral and stuff like that, which [00:34:00] yes, that's nice, but creating the recipe for going viral is so difficult.

Matt: yeah,

Claire: you know, people should get away from thinking about that. And instead. Typically, most businesses we talk to, ultimately, the thing they're going to measure success on is sales. So, we're going to give them a strategy that will get them sales, so that, that is going to include an advertising strategy. Um, but we do work with... Um, some brands just creating organic content for TikTok as well. Um, so we work with Green Chef, who's part of the HelloFresh group. It's all their, like, vegan, vegetarian stuff. And we just film making meals and sharing the finished meal. And, you know, regularly those videos get in excess of 2 million views per video.

Because he's just giving people what they want, you

Matt: mm,

Claire: See something satisfying, something that looks real, and it's all filmed on a smartphone, you know, there's no studio production and, and all of this because [00:35:00] it's, it's what looks right and works for the platform. So yeah, get, getting, getting the content right and then pairing that with an advertising strategy, um, is what's really going to help drive growth and sales if you're using TikTok to target your audience.

Matt: Well there's a lot there, I'm definitely going to check, was it Green Chef? I'm going to go check it out, uh, and have a look at some of that, because I, I see they're the kind of, if I'm on TikTok and I, I, I limit myself to TikTok, because like you, I just get sucked into this universe. Um, they're the kind of things that I see, the sort of, the 7, 15 second videos where someone goes, you know, chops an onion, throws it in a frying pan, you hear the sizzle, so you've got the, the sound effects now are a big thing as well, aren't they?

Um, you've got all of that, 15 seconds later, you've got a big dish or whatever it is, and you, and you, you're like, wow, I can, and then if I want to, I can dig in and find out a little bit more about it. I guess if I'm... I can see how that would work for Green Chef. If I go back to my torch example, because I'm just kind of [00:36:00] curious.

The things in my head then are, unboxing videos would be quite good, um, Uh, just messing around at night, I suppose, showing how bright it is would be quite good. Um, dropping it from a building and it not smashing because it's in this aluminium case would be all those kind of things, isn't it? That's the kind of thing you're talking about.

It's not a, it's not a presentation going, right, three reasons why this torch will outshine your competition. Uh, reason number one, uh, because no one's going to watch that, right? It's not the old sort of sales, uh, long form sales. But it is very much 17 seconds, just bang, get it out there. Um, and recording that on your smartphone, being super casual about it, not looking for the high production value.

Yeah, I mean, you say that there has to be, I, I, well, let me, let me not make that a statement. Let me make it a question. Does there have to be at least some form of production value? Because I see a lot of these things. That look like they have no prediction value, but then I sit and think about someone thought [00:37:00] long and hard about how to put that.

That was not an accident. Do you know what I mean?

Claire: yeah, definitely. You know, when, when I'm saying doesn't have to be kind of super polished. It's in my mind, I'm going, you don't have to have a film crew, it doesn't have to be filmed on a high spec camera. But you definitely have to Think about what you're doing, have a creative idea. I mean, you've just reeled off a number of creative ideas there, obviously, for your torch.

Not everyone is naturally so creative that they could think of those, but it's giving people that idea of, you know, it doesn't have to be hard, like a torch is really boring, and you've just thought of loads of fun ways to show it, and that's, that's what TikTok's all about. The beauty of TikTok as well, for a brand, is... Unlike any other social media platform, the assets they make available to brands are unbelievable. So you can go into TikTok Creative Center and you could search for a torch [00:38:00] and it will show you all the best performing videos. to do with torches, you know, it can show you everything that's trending right now, trending influences, trending hashtags, trending songs, trending video styles that you can copy, you know, so you don't have to be a creative to be able to actually start compiling a strategy of the type of content that, that you should create.

Um, but then yes. Equally, as much as I say it's super easy, you just pick up your phone and film it, if it's really poor quality video, if the audio is muffled, anything like that, that's not going to work as well. You know, it definitely needs to be to a certain standard, um, of production, but it just doesn't have to be.

You know, what I would have considered five or six years ago, if I was like, my company needs a video, what I was going to have to invest to get one video production that would go into it. Whereas now, you know, the challenge we have is, well, we need to [00:39:00] charge X for how much we're going to film. But actually the outcome is the client gets four 15 second videos, you know, so how much do they want to pay for that?

Matt: yeah, yeah.

Claire: So it, It just does come to, it doesn't have to be a super resource heavy investment to get something, you know, that's going to work for you on there.

Matt: So if I'm, if I'm say, you know, I've got my torch, I'm sold into TikTok. I've got a few ideas of things that I'm going to film. Um, is it a case of four videos is fine? Or is it a case of I have to do four videos a week and just constantly, you know, like the old blog posts, you couldn't just write one.

You had to just keep churning them out. I say old blog posts because people still do them, but do you know what I mean? It's that kind of, is there a, is there a consistency thing that I need to think about with TikTok?

Claire: Consistency is absolutely the right word. So, TikTok themselves say that to grow your channel, you should post at [00:40:00] least three times a day.

Matt: Oh, wow.

Claire: Now, I take that with a massive pinch of salt and we don't advise that to anyone because that's just so out of reach for so many people. I think that works if you are a person, an influencer who wants to grow a channel and you can invest all your personal time in it.

But for a brand or a business, I think it's that quite often unachievable, um, but what we have seen is the key is consistency. You know, if you post once a week, make sure you post once a week. You know, if you post once a week, then you have three weeks off. What you'll find is the one, the week you come back, you probably won't get seen as much as you were getting seen when you were posting consistently.

Every week. So you definitely do have to commit to a kind of plan with it and make sure that you stick to that. And then there's also certain things around the advertising side as well. You know, you can't just produce one piece of collateral and that's your ad and that will just run. Your ads need to [00:41:00] have constant new content added as well.

TikTok may serve anywhere to like three to seven different pieces of content for your ads at a time. Um, so if someone's seen one of your ads, they may then show them another one to try convert them and they want you to kind of refresh it at least every week. So that's more of a consideration if you're doing an ad to make sure you've got several pieces of content that can be used for part of that.

Um, but that's very easy. You could take exactly the same content and just re edit it and put it in different order. You know, there's lots of ways you can do that without going, Oh, does that mean I have to have... X amount of different creative ideas. No, you just have to have different videos. So it, there's ways of managing it all.

Matt: yeah. No, very, very fair point. And in fact, uh, uh, did a, a podcast with Amelia Coomber. Uh, dear listener, if you wanna check out more on that strategy that, um, close this mention, Amelia digs into that a little bit. Um, So I've, [00:42:00] I've, I'm obviously having to, if I'm invested in TikTok, I've got to be in it. I can't just dip my toe.

I've got to put a mixture of organic content out there, add specific content and, and, and somehow make all of this work. Um, just dig into, you mentioned the TikTok Creative Center, just dig into what that is a little bit for people that might not know. And is it something that you have to, you know, do a secret handshake to get into?

Claire: No, absolutely not. If you've got a business account, you can get into there. Um, you can also, there's lots of things to know with TikTok. Typically, brands may prefer to have a personal account rather than a business account because the access to music is limited on a business account. However, a business account is going to give you the features like TikTok shop and advertising.

So there's pros and cons that you may want to weigh up and you can change. At different times. So you may prefer if you're going down more of an organic strategy initially to keep your profile personal [00:43:00] because you're able to jump on a lot more trends with having the full library of videos and music available to you.

But then when you want the business features, you may go that in direction. You can also advertise on TikTok and have a business account without having a TikTok page with content on. We would always recommend that you do have that. But you can get started with a business account without needing to set up a profile.

So a few things there to consider. But yeah, if you've got a business account, you can log into the Creative Centre. So I've just opened it up in front of me, just talking through it. So this section called Inspiration, you can look at the top ads and all of that can be filtered by country, uh, By date, lots of different filters to make it specific to you so you can see what's performing well.

So we always look at that if we're starting a new ad strategy for a client. Again, as, as I said earlier, like we were looking at data, we aim to take the guesswork out of anything. Like we're [00:44:00] pretty sure we know what works, but let's look at the data. So whilst we have some amazing ideas, well let's see what ads have been performing well, so you can have a look through all of that. You can look at keyword insights, so we are seeing that TikTok is growing as a search platform as well, and it's getting a lot more linked with SEO you can have a look at keywords and hashtags, and what is performing well, what you should get on board with. You can look for creative ideas, top selling products.

Then in terms of what's trending, you can look at trending hashtags, trending songs, trending creators. Trending TikTok videos. You can download trend reports that give you different perspectives on things. Um, you can also create videos in Creative Center. It's got a lot of creative tools, um, video editor templates as well.

You can download creative strategies in there. It's so, so worth anyone who is already using [00:45:00] TikTok but doesn't know how to use it properly for their marketing efforts or is thinking of getting involved, just go and spend some time on Creative Center. Like, it's honestly brilliant, the, the access to resources that they give you.

And also probably worth mentioning. Seeing as this chat is about Gen Z, not just about TikTok. When we were doing the piece on Snapchat, Snapchat had very similar. So if you sign up for a Snapchat business account, they have a great creative center and you can get a lot of insights similar to what we could go and pull off GWI.

We could go look on Snapchat and it'll tell us, um, right, if we want to look at an audience between this age range, what are their interests, what type of content do they engage with, all of this stuff. So you can start with getting a really clear idea and shaping your... Marketing strategy around content that is really readily available to you.

You know, so for TikTok [00:46:00] in their top 10 interests, we can filter that down specific to Gen Z. So the number one interest in TikTok content for Gen Z is gaming. So gaming first, then food. And then kind of within there, within the top 10 as well, you've got things like fitness and wellness content, skincare, um, Lots of gaming stuff, actually, and lots of skincare stuff, um, and yeah, food, food and drink, so you can start seeing what it is that they're already doing, and then you know that's what I need to go and create and produce

Matt: Yeah, wow, that's awesome. Top advice, uh, there, uh, how long do you think it would take, uh, for someone who's never really done TikTok, never really done Snapchat, but goes, actually a big chunk of my audience is, is Gen Z, I need to go get my head around this. How, how, how much time investment do you think is involved [00:47:00] in, in learning about these two platforms?

Is it, is it a case of you'll pick it up in an hour? Is it a case of, yeah, you got to set aside a month in your diary, mate?

Claire: Um, I don't think that much time, I think, you know, if you go and just actually study the resources, study the platform, I do think it would be beneficial if you have someone within the demographic, if you want to use it because you want to target Gen Z. Speak to your NZ people, you know, they'll, they'll tell you how they're using that platform, what they like, don't like, you know, if you don't have access to the data that we have, you can still find out, oh, well, how are you interacting with brands on there, and maybe we should do that, um, you know, so.

A couple of days would, would probably be sufficient to giving yourself time to look through the resources and, and get to know it, and then it's just about building out a, a strategy to produce the content, but to give you an idea, I mean, we've just... Um, brought on a new client who, I mean, [00:48:00] it's not targeting Gen Z, but they're going with TikTok and TikTok is a very new platform for them.

And we're going to do like within a month, we'll have produced a full strategy for them that includes all the data, what they should do, who we're targeting, the type of content. And then we're doing a quarterly filming day. So we'll spend one full day. Getting content that will feed us for a quarter,

Matt: right,

Claire: um, you know, content to post and that'll be for both their ads and organic.

So if you can set aside the time or work with an agency who can do that for you, um, then, you know, it's, I think the unknown often makes it seem more out of reach and like a bigger deal if you've not got involved in it yet, but I'd say just rip the bandaid off, get involved, um, and it's, it's not as hard as you might think it would be.

Matt: So let's talk costs then because, um, I mean, if you, if people are listening to the show been around a while, they've, they'll have some understanding of [00:49:00] costs involved with advertising on Meta. They'll have some understanding of costs involved in advertising on Google, um, and the corresponding conversion rates and what Google brings in typically what, you know, Meta is going to bring in typically.

How does, say, TikTok and Snapchat, how do those platforms compare, say, with Meta? Right.

Claire: A lot cheaper. So, yeah, I mean, I would still probably assign the same budget, but we can do more with the budget. I don't have any specific examples, I'm trying to think, but I, it's that paid media team that run it, because I would love to give you one of like, cost for acquisition, um, on some of the campaigns we're running, but...

You can definitely get a lot more for your money on TikTok than you can on Meta.

Matt: Okay. So definitely worth looking at. And in terms of funnel, right, so everyone talks about, um, you know, the different stages of that funnel. The awareness section, the, you know, top funnel, [00:50:00] middle of funnel, bottom of funnel. We use a lot on Meta, don't we? Um, TikTok, Snapchat. Where, where is that aiming in terms of, are we brand awareness?

Are we, I mean, you've talked about doing direct conversion ads. So we, where are we doing all of them on these platforms? What, what's your thinking on that?

Claire: Yeah, definitely. It depends on the strategy. So for some people, if it's brand awareness and it's about we just need to create lots of fun content, be seen by lots of people, you know, we may be looking to raise awareness, but it could be something that is not a physical product to check out. So we want people to know about us.

But it's not gonna be the place that they're really gonna transact. Whereas for other companies, it absolutely could be the place that they can transact with that checkout feature on TikTok shop. So it is going to depend on the business. We would, you know, um, approach that on a strategy by strategy basis.

But it can serve for all funnel.

Matt: [00:51:00] Right, so all the stages of the funnel are okay on these platforms,

Claire: Yes,

Matt: fascinating. Can you, uh, I, I know that people who listen to the podcast don't always sell physical products, right? So they're not always selling torches, for example, maybe they're selling digital products like a course, you know, how to learn the piano in 30 days or whatever, you know, is going on.

Um, does that. I kind of know the answer before I ask the question, but let me ask it anyway, um, digital products on TikTok, as well as physical products, I assume we can advertise both?

Claire: Absolutely. Yeah. We, we are doing at the moment,

Matt: Okay. And would you, I'm kind of curious, Clay, you obviously have your, um, marketing agency, Trio. Um, I, I'm showing my age. I'm really sorry, but every time I use the word Trio, I've got, um, there's an old, yeah, I've got that in my head. The old TV [00:52:00] commercial. Um, would you advertise or promote your agency on TikTok?

Claire: Yeah, I mean, we have done a TikTok ad before, um, for us and we are active on TikTok. So, I mean, we haven't been the consistency thing we're struggling at for ourselves. Um, but absolutely. And there's a lot of agencies on there producing content and You know, it comes down to what your strategy is, so for example, for us, with social media, we have a specific strategy, well we have a motto for social media, you either want to work with us or for us, that is how someone should feel engaging with us, so we're using it both for engaging with prospective clients, but also engaging with prospective employees, and that is what social media works really well for, for us. We very rarely have to even advertise a [00:53:00] job because people see us and what we're doing on social media and are approaching us saying, Oh my God, you look so fun. Have you got any jobs going? Um, you know, so that's, that for us is a win and is worth the investment. So even if we're not selling something, we're not going, Oh, well, did we win a new client offer?

Well, no, but we, we recruited a load of great people off the back of it. So, um, you know, that's one of our strategies and it's what it works for.

Matt: That's really interesting because, yeah, I mean, we spent the whole last however long, 45 minutes or so chatting about how to win sales and customers on things like TikTok. But if you're, uh, from the agency point of view, what the thing that you've drawn out there about. Recruitment using social media. And obviously if you're in recruitment and you're looking to recruit Gen Z, then being on TikTok and Snapchat makes an awful lot of sense.

And I, I, so that's the flip side of it actually, isn't it? It's, it helps you bring in great people to your company. You're attracting top talent [00:54:00] because of what's going on. So, um, and again, I hope you don't mind me asking the question. I'm kind of curious how you do it internally. Is it just you? Cause you're the, the owner, is it everybody?

in your social media team has the same password on their phones and everyone's throwing content out um because I think it's I I've seen e commerce brands do it in multiple different ways do you mean in terms of the yes we can go batch film some ads and spend a day doing that but that sort of day to day stuff I'm kind of curious how you do it and how you've seen it done well

Claire: Yeah, it's rarely me. Um, it's most often the Gen Z's in the office who want to create some TikToks and I'm like, yes, please do. Um, I actually think it should be me more. So, you know, I Engage in a lot of content that is like business owners, business founders, marketing leaders, sharing insights and thoughts.

So, ideally, what I believe our [00:55:00] strategy should be, you know, don't shoot me that we're not doing it, but if, if anyone else is to be taking advice, I should probably sit down once a month and create loads of short little videos that we could put out throughout the month, sharing industry tips, knowledge, advice, you know, we've spoken about so many.

Insightful things today, I should be sharing all of that on TikTok, like if you've got something to say, share it with people, um, and then equally, still having the side. Where the team are sharing fun things of what's going on, you know, it doesn't have to be because you might find you'll see certain TikTok videos that you see time and time again from the same person, like more of the same because you watched one of their videos and you see the same thing.

But then you go on the channel and you realize you've got loads of other content, but that's not showed to you because that's not what you engaged with. So. What TikTok's really great for is you can have different streams and, you know, themes of content without it going oh, but [00:56:00] this is for one audience, that's for another, because, you know, if I was putting out a lot of educational stuff, it would serve that to people who would be interested in that.

We could still have a team putting up silly stuff and days in the life, things they're doing in the office, and that would be served to the people. They're like that type of content. So yeah, in an ideal world, we would create a lot more, but we just put so much effort into our clients TikToks. Yeah, we don't have

Matt: well rescued at the end there. It's like, um, I'm, I'm the same way. My e commerce websites are always the last websites I work on because you're so busy doing, uh, and you just sit there and you just think, oh, I should do this on our, um, you know, we're too busy doing clients or we're too

Claire: was nice saying it, but I do.

Matt: Yeah. It's like, they always used to say, isn't it about your builder, your builder comes around. Don't ever go around their house cause it'd be a right mess.

Claire: Well, my husband is a builder, so I say that all the time. I'm like, I mean, I'm living in a house [00:57:00] renovation all

Matt: Right, just got used to it, that's why you spend a lot of time at the office, it's fine. Claire, listen, this has been awesome, and I'm sure a lot of people are interested to find out more, and if they do, if they want to connect with you, maybe got some questions, maybe even want to talk to you about getting your agency to work for them, what's the best way to get a hold of you?

Claire: So to reach out to me direct, you can find me on LinkedIn, it's Claire Daniels, or if you want to get in touch with Trio, find out more about what it is that we do, the website is trio-media.co.uk

Matt: trio-media. co. uk, and if you do get a hold of a Claire, if you do get a hold of a Claire, if you get a hold of Claire. Make sure you go tree o, forward slash tree,

Claire: some people going, I don't get it.

Matt: they're the same people that go Hang on, you had a phone stuck to the wall. It's still scratching there. Yeah, sorry, it's [00:58:00] very very different. But listen, Claire, thank you so much for joining us. We will of course link to Claire and the website and all the social media stuff in the show notes, which you can get along for free at ecommercepodcast.

net and if you sign up to the newsletter Obviously, they will be coming to your inbox automatically to you. Click away, connect with Claire on LinkedIn, on Snapchat or whatever platforms you prefer. I'm sure Claire would love to talk to you, um, but yeah, Claire, thank you so much for joining us. It has been an absolute treat.

Oh yes it has.

Claire: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Matt: Oh no, it's been great, it's been great. So there you have it, another fantastic conversation lined up on e commerce podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts from, it helps us reach more people and of course you get it all direct to your phone, no doubt, free, automatically, all these things come.

Make sure you also check out e commerce cohort, like I say, some really interesting things come in there, some new developments. [00:59:00] I'm going to be sharing those with you over the coming weeks, I'm very excited by them, but check out ecommercecohort. com. All that's left to say is, thank you Claire, that's it from me, that's it from Claire, thank you so much for joining us.

Oh no, I need to do that. You can tell Claire I've been away for a little bit because I, I almost forgot to do the ending. Yeah, yeah, just rewind, blub, blub, blub, blub, blub. Uh, so in case no one has told you yet today, dear listener, you are awesome. Yes, you are. Created awesome. It's just a burden you have to bear.

Claire has to bear it. I've got to bear it. You've got to bear it as well. Phew. Phew. Professional to the end. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. We'll see you next time. Bye for now.

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